Reverend KNOx. I think we should see that there are two problems quite clearly involved. I think we should see that there is the problem which is involved in the application of the present law; that is to say, problem of the eight or nine thousand people who are now being held for deportation. There is also the problem which you propose to make the number much greater by the passage of a bill that is much broader in its scope, much more inclusive, and much more dangerous than any bill which we now have.

Mr. CRAVENS. You do not believe, then, that a member of the Communist Party ought to be deported from the United States; you do not believe that?

Reverend KNOX. Purely because he is a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. CRAVENS. Yes.

Reverend KNOX. I do not.

Mr. GUYER. If he is an alien who has no right to be here?

Mr. CRAVENS. Yes.

Reverend KNOX. I do not think that in the United States we are ready to set up a standard whereby we discriminate against political beliefs of any peoples, and I think when we do that we are on our way to what is taking place in Germany and other countries.

Mr. CRAVENS. Even though those political beliefs, if carried into action, would result in the downfall and overthrow of this country? Reverend KNOX. If any belief leads beyond the realm of theory and enters into the realm of action, and that action is against the law, then I certainly think that any group that violates the law ought to be punished, whether Republicans or Communists.

Mr. CRAVENS. But you often cannot wait around until they take action.

Reverend KNOX. Of either Republicans or Communists that is true. As a matter of fact, if we want to go into a discussion of those who have done more to discredit the Government of the United States, we have to admit in the very beginning that the Republican and Demcratic Parties, by virtue of the fact that they have a much larger number of membership and much more opportunity, have again and again done things and created problems and scandals. The White House has been rocked with scandals in past years, and the Congress has been rocked with scandals.

Mr. CRAVENS. But they are not aliens.

Reverend KNOX. I know, but the citizen has no more right to cor rupt his government or to seek to overthrow it than an alien does.

Mr. CRAVENS. That is true, but at the same time the alien has not the same right to stay around and keep on doing it that a citizen has, probably.

Reverend KNOX. I know, but there is no reason why a citizen or an alien, either one, should stick around and do things which are a crime. Mr. CRAVENS. You cannot deport a citizen, and we are dealing with aliens here.

Reverend KNOx. But you can put him in jail.

Mr. CRAVENS. We do put citizens in jail for violating the law. Reverend KNOx. Yes; we put citizens in jail for violating the law, and that is the place to put them, and that is the place for an alien who violates the law.

Mr. CRAVENS. You do not believe that an alien who is a member of the Communist Party should be deported from this country? Reverend KNOx. Not just because he belongs to a political party; any political party.

Mr. CRAVENS. If he complies with the principles of the Communist Party, do you think that he ought to be allowed to run at large in this country.

Reverend KNOX. Would you define the principles of the Communist Party?

Mr. CRAVENS. Well, they are generally understood to advocate the overthrow of this country by force and violence.

Reverend KNOx. Whenever he does actually move toward that, then he ought to be in jail.

Mr. CRAVENS. Then you are going to wait until he commits this act? Reverend KNOX. I do not think so.

Mr. CRAVENS. There has to be an overt act, in your estimation? Reverend KNOX. You are assuming that in this country, or a country where we have had these traditions for 150 years, that a few people are going to be able to so contaminate the country, as you say, by their ideas, if you feel that it is contamination, that they are going to be able to overthrow the entire country. I do not think so, unless we have reached the place where we are denying rights of a large majority of people to the extent that the large majority of the people rebel against it, there is no danger from those ideas.

Mr. CRAVENS. Coming back to my original question, do you believe that an alien who is a member of the Communist Party, assuming that that party advocates the overthrow of this country by force and violence, ought to be permitted to remain in this country.

Reverend KNOx. You are saying assuming it does.

Mr. CRAVENS. Well, assuming, that is the word. I am not arguing whether it is or is not a fact, but assuming it is a fact, then would you think that alien ought to be deported or not?

Reverend KNOX. I think that alien would be stupid, but I do not know that I would favor his deportation. I am inclined to think I would not, until he committed an overt act. I have heard so much of this Communist bunk, that certain men are branded as Communists, and I think it is one of the tragedies of the day that, if anyone disagrees with us, we brand him as being a Communist. I think our position is rather clearly stated.

Mr. WEAVER. I think we understand your position.

Reverend KNOX. I deeply appreciate the courtesy and time you have extended to me.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. WEAVER. Colonel Taylor is here this morning and has asked to be heard.

Are you ready to proceed, Colonel?

Colonel TAYLOR. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

STATEMENT OF COL. JOHN THOMAS TAYLOR, REPRESENTING THE AMERICAN LEGION

Mr. WEAVER. Will you just give your full name and whom you represent?

Colonel TAYLOR. John Thomas Taylor of the American Legion.

I did not know that this hearing was going to be devoted to weeping all over the lot for a lot of alien criminals, or that it was going to be utilized in defense of the Communist Party. It seems to me it is time for witnesses to come before the congressional committees to advocate and defend Americans in this present world situation.

We are for the Hobbs bill. We are for H. R. 3, as it was originally presented to this committee, before the language was stricken out and the new recommendations of the Attorney General were substituted for it, and the original Hobbs bill has nothing to do with the Ford strike, and aims in no way to deport anybody that was involved in the Ford strike. It aims to place in camp enemy aliens who have been convicted of crimes and who should be deported, and who cannot be deported because the country from which they come will not accept them. We ought to stop doing business with a lot of those countries, and we ought to say we won't accept them until they do accept them, and that we will not accept any more aliens from those countries unless there is some way for them to take them back.

I believe that the changes recommended by the Attorney General as setting up a Board giving the Department of Justice the right to whitewash aliens who have entered this country illegally is against the principles that we believe in. We had no hearing before your committee on the Hobbs bill, but we were before the Rules Committee, where we objected to the substitution of the language and the striking out of the Hobbs provisions, and as a result of that hearing before the Rules Committee, we are now before this committee to speak on the Hobbs bill. We are for the Hobbs bill just as it is, and we hope that this committee will now report out the Hobbs bill, H. R. 3, just as it was introduced, and we oppose the so-called amendments as recommended by the Attorney General.

Now, if there is anything I can answer in questions, I will be very glad to do so.

Mr. HOBBS. Colonel, what about title III?

Colonel TAYLOR. Title III of your bill?

Mr. HOBBS. No, sir.

Colonel TAYLOR. Of the recommendations of the Attorney General? Mr. HOBBS. I want to make it perfectly clear that this substitute or amended bill is mine also, and that I favor this bill as amended, but be that as it may, I am asking you about title III of the amended bill, section 301.

Colonel TAYLOR. Well, of course, we are for it.

Mr. HOBBS. That is what I thought.

Colonel TAYLOR. Why, certainly.

Mr. HOBBS. All right.

Colonel TAYLOR. I do not know, Mr. Hobbs, the use of the naming of those few organizations there. I suppose there is a reason for that. I mean the specific naming of them.

Mr. HOBBS. You will notice it is general, also.

Colonel TAYLOR (reading):

or any organization successor to any one of them shall be excluded from admission

And so forth.

Mr. HOBBS. I do not mean that; I mean the first sentence.

Colonel TAYLOR. We are for it.

Mr. HOBBS. You notice, any alien who seeks to enter the United States intending to act in behalf of any foreign government.

Colonel TAYLOR. That is right.

Mr. HOBBS. And then we use the general category, and then specifically. I will say the reason those were put in by name is because those are all I could think of.

Colonel TAYLOR. But, Mr. Hobbs, you know what I mean when I say we are against the recommendation of the Attorney General, There are literally hundreds and maybe thousands of aliens who have come into this country illegally, those who have come in on visitors' visas, and those visas have been extended. They knew it, because I called it to their attention at the time, that they never would be able to send them back.

Now, then, they are setting aside the immigration laws of this country that we had to fight for so many years. They are setting aside their national allegiance, and they are setting aside the intention of this bill by now giving a board or anybody else the right to go ahead and say these aliens are all right and they should be able to stay in this country. That is not right; it is destroying the alien laws that we have been for years and years trying to get through. This quota can apply to this year, next year, or 50 years from now, and that is not right. Mr. HOBBS. Well, I do not agree with that.

Colonel TAYLOR. But that is title IV. As to title III, we are for it. Mr. HOBBS. I want you to get this thing right in your thinking: I am 100 percent in accord with your views. I would say 110 percent, if it would add weight to it.

Colonel TAYLOR. I agree with you, because we discussed H. R. 3 long ago.

Mr. HOBBS. Now, what I am interested in getting at is the issue that is between us. We want the same objectives attained.

Now, let us get down to brass tacks and see what the issues are between us. Now, you think that title III is all right?

Colonel TAYLOR. I think it is.

Mr. HOBBS. All right, sir, how about title I?

Colonel TAYLOR. Well, I would not want to go into it. I have Captain Trevor here, who has made a very careful study of the bill and who will appear before you in just a few moments to analyze it for you. I do not want to go into the technical part of it.

By the way, we now have a bill, as suggested by the Rules Committee, that we are going to have introduced by Mr. Allen, covering this situation-I do not mean covering internment matters, but covering generally this question of deportation and naturalization, and so forth, as the Rules Committee has suggested.

Mr. HOBBS. No, sir; I did not know that, but that is perfectly all right with me.

Colonel TAYLOR. It is not in conflict with your bill. It is in substitution of or in conflict with the recommendations of the Attorney General, however.

Mr. HOBBS. Then, let us take up title IV, which you inveighed against so strongly. Specifically, what is your objection to section 401? Colonel TAYLOR. Well, again I ask that Captain Trevor, who has made an analysis of this thing from the technical angle and aspect of it, discuss that with you.

Mr. HOBBS. Why, certainly, that is all right.

Colonel TAYLOR. But I just want you to know how we feel. We are for the Hobbs bill No. 3. You know that.

Mr. HOBBS. I know that, and I want to say this, that I have the highest regard for the gentleman's mentality and for his integrity. Colonel TAYLOR. Thank you very much.

Mr. HOBBS. But I believe if he would study this bill analytically, he would be for this bill. Personally, I think that it is a better bill than H. R. 3 was originally.

Colonel TAYLOR. I am amazed that this committee should be used as a sounding board for the kind of propaganda that has been spread on the record here this morning, and it has upset me, Mr. Chairman. My God, think of a witness coming here and saying that he is not in favor of deporting a Communist, a man who believes in the overthrow of the Government by force and violence! What are we to do? Are we to turn the country over to these aliens? If, by the misfortunes of war, the country should be involved, and prisoners should be captured, I suppose we should let them roam the country.

Mr. HOBBS. Colonel Taylor, I am sure you would not advocate the abolition of the right of free speech.

Colonel TAYLOR. No; I would not advocate the abolition of free speech, but we stand for law and order, as against disorder and disloyalty.

Mr. HOBBS. Has not Dr. Knox the right to express his views?

Colonel TAYLOR. Yes, people have a right to express their views. No one is questioning that.

Mr. HOBBS. He is an American citizen.

Colonel TAYLOR. I am talking about aliens.

Mr. HOBBS. He is an American citizen.

Colonel TAYLOR. I am talking about aliens using this committee as a sounding board for that kind of propaganda.

Mr. HOBBS. But you are saying that you are surprised and shocked that this committee should permit itself to be used as a sounding board for such propaganda and so forth.

Colonel TAYLOR. Yes.

Mr. HOBBS. Do you not believe that he has the right to voice his views?

Colonel TAYLOR. Yes, yes; and the Congressmen have a right to go back at him.

Mr. TREVOR. May I follow Colonel Taylor?

Mr. WEAVER. We will be glad to hear from you now. Give your full name and whom you represent.

STATEMENT OF JOHN B. TREVOR, REPRESENTING THE AMERICAN COALITION OF PATRIOTIC, CIVIC, AND FRATERNAL SOCIETIES, SOUTHERN BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. TREVOR. John B. Trevor; and I represent the American Coalition of Patriotic, Civic, and Fraternal Societies, with offices in the Southern Building.

If the Chair permits, I would like to take this bill up section by section.

Mr. WEAVER. We would be very glad to have you do that.

Mr. TREVOR. I can pass over section 1. Section 2 creates a board of three members at a salary of $8,000.