too thinly already, and as a result you had very few new districts last

year.

Mr. DYKES. That was true up to June 30 of last year, Mr. Whitten. Mr. WHITTEN. How large an area throughout the United States do you have which is in need of the organization of new districts?

Dr. SALTER. The districts now cover about 80 percent of the agricultural land. We need the rest, that 20 percent. Much of it is badly in need of conservation.

Mr. ANDERSEN. The point which concerns me, Doctor, is whether or not there will be sufficient technical personnel to do the job which the Congress wants done in all of the soil-conservation districts in America. I gather, from the statement of Mr. Dykes, that there would be insufficient funds to do the job as it should be done.

Mr. DYKES. We believe that, Mr. Andersen, very sincerely.

Mr. ANDERSEN. I agree with you. If there is any one thing in this entire appropriation bill which I have been interested in from year to year it is this particular section of the bill. I feel that the farmers of America can accomplish more by having the technical knowledge than they can through almost any other means.

COST OF CONTINUING PROGRAM

Dr. Salter, how much would be required to attain the level of conservation which this subcommittee has expected? I am asking you that, knowing full well that you are supposed to testify on behalf of the budget as it is presented to us. You, on the other hand, must, when requested, give to the subcommittee your personal opinion, from the best knowledge you have on hand, as to what the needs are.

Dr. SALTER. Mr. Chairman, I mentioned the decrease of $2,085,278 from the Truman budget. The budget now before you also carries an additional decrease of $1,090,722 for assistance to districts below the Truman budget, the present budget.

Mr. ANDERSEN. Below the current activities?

Dr. SALTER. Below the current activities. It also carries a decrease of $1,300,000 which comes under the "Assistance to districts" item and which has been expended for the support of our nursery activities. Mr. ANDERSEN. Let us limit it to this one specific item for the present.

Dr. SALTER. For this one specific item I would estimate that it would take in the neighborhood of 500 man-years of additional assist

ance.

Mr. ANDERSEN. That would be approximately how much?

Dr. SALTER. A little over $2 million, $2.2 million, or something close to that.

Mr. ANDERSEN. That would give to each of the soil-conservation districts the manpower which you feel they should have to do a good job?

Mr. DYKES. That would bring it up, Mr. Andersen, to the level of assistance that we have been able to provide districts this year.

Mr. ANDERSEN. That is the point I wanted brought out. Now will you discuss the other changes in the revised budget, Doctor? Dr. SALTER. Yes.

NURSERY PRODUCTION ACTIVITIES

Mr. ANDERSEN. You mentioned this nursery work.

Dr. SALTER. Yes. In the current year we are expending approximately $1.7 million for this nursery item. The decrease is $1,300,000. As stated, the nursery item is for the production and purchase of conservation plant materials for grant to State soil-conservation districts. The decrease contemplates the transfer of nursery-production activities by June 30, 1954, to State or other local groups which may be interested in maintaining them.

We are operating 24 nurseries for the production of planting materials. That includes trees, shrubs, and grass and legume seeds. During the past year we produced about 50 million trees and shrubs. Most of these or about 90 percent were woody plants. And we produced about a half million pounds of grass and legume seeds that were distributed to something over 1,100 districts and planted on the farms of about 100,000 farmers and ranchers.

Mr. ANDERSEN. Approximately $1.7 million annually has been expended on these nurseries; is that right?

Dr. SALTER. That is right.

Mr. ANDERSEN. I understand that the full amount is not being taken away from this particular project?

Dr. SALTER. Actually, $425,000 is left in the item for 1954.

Mr. ANDERSEN. Are you in a position to immediately turn over this work to the States?

Dr. SALTER. No; we will have to explore it nursery-by-nursery with the States to determine the agencies that would be in a position to take them over.

Mr. ANDERSEN. In the meantime what will you do with the 24 existing nurseries? How will you operate them prior to turning them over to another group?

Dr. SALTER. On as near a standby basis as possible.

Mr. WHITTEN. Where are you going to get the seeds and these other things? Let us assume that you are going to have soil-conservation districts and you are going to spend all of this money through various Government programs to bring about a good soil-conservation job. In the event nobody takes these nurseries off your hands and you have to let them go by the board, are you not in the same ridiculous position which the forestry department was in a few years ago, of doing a tremendous job of selling people on setting out trees and then having no trees? This will work fine if somebody else will step in and take it over.

Dr. SALTER. That is right. If we can make these arrangements. for State agency operation, I think this could be made to work so far as the production of mass quantities of trees, seeds, and shrubs is concerned.

Mr. WHITTEN. Why did you get into operating nurseries in the first instance? Was it not because nobody else was doing it and you could not get the seed any place?

Dr. SALTER. That is right.

Mr. WHITTEN. Has anybody stepped into the picture? Or are they all like the States I know of, short on meeting their own needs?

Dr. SALTER. In some sections I think they have stepped in fairly well, but in many areas they have not.

Mr. WHITTEN. I am not opposed to what is being sought here, but I am opposed to spending money in the soil conservation program without being absolutely sure in advance that you have the means to carry out the program. Have you any suggestions as to how this committee might help to protect the right of this agency to continue these things in the event you are unsuccessful in getting others to take over?

Mr. Wheeler, could we make funds available for the carrying on of this activity contingent upon whether or not other agencies or States would take over and carry on the work?

Mr. WHEELER. Yes. If the committee wanted to do so, it could provide funds for the nurseries and give a directive to the Department to move as vigorously as possible toward transferring the nurseries to State or other organizations which could take them over. If the Congress preferred to handle the transition that way, of course, it could be done.

Mr. WHITTEN. Thank you, sir.

Mr. ANDERSEN. There are undoubtedly some groups of people ready to take over some of these nurseries. There is no question about that, is there, Doctor?

Dr. SALTER. I am sure that could be arranged in some cases. The State conservation commission in Ohio will take over our Zanesville nursery if they can get the necessary funds in their budget.

Mr. ANDERSEN. If we were to arrange this along the line suggested by Mr. Whitten, and you were able to dispose of the property, then we could consider that particular portion rescinded. Could something like that be done?

Mr. DYKES. Yes, sir.

Mr. ANDERSEN. At the same time it would protect the work in case you could not get them put into the proper hands; is that not right?

Dr. SALTER. If that can be done it certainly would be an advantage. Mr. HUNTER. Does the Department have in mind having the farmer eventually buy all of these seeds and shrubs from either State or private sources?

Dr. SALTER. That would be what they have in mind, yes.

Mr. HORAN. Have you had any statement about cooperation with the Federal-State nurseries now existing? I notice on the list you have one at Pullman, Wash., where we have had a Federal-State nursery for decades.

Dr. SALTER. That is partly ours.

Mr. HORAN. What is the nature of this cooperation with the
Federal-State nurseries and schools of silviculture and so forth?
Dr. SALTER. I am sure we have a cooperative arrangement with
them. I cannot tell you the details on it, Mr. Horan.

Mr. ANDERSEN. Perhaps you can have that put in the record.
Mr. HORAN. I wish you would.

Dr. SALTER. All right.

(The information is as follows:)

COOPERATION WITH STATE AGRICULTURAL EXPERIMENT STATIONS ON NURSERY

WORK

In conducting its nursery operations the Soil Conservation Service has established cooperation under memoranda of understanding with approximately 30 State agricultural experiment stations. The broad objective of this cooperation is to find and test plants, including trees, shrubs, grasses, and legumes, which promise to be useful in the soil and moisture conservation program. The general pattern of these cooperative arrangements involves the pooling of resources by the Soil Conservation Service and the particular agricultural experiment station concerned. For example, in one of the cooperative agreements with the Washington Agricultural Experiment Station, which covers work being done at Pullman, Wash., the experiment station furnishes land, office and laboratory facilities, available seed for testing, and labor to the extent mutually agreed upon. It also assigns certain members of the staff of the experiment station to assist in carrying on the nursery work. The Soil Conservation Service assigns to this work a fulltime man to supervise the work at Pullman and adjacent areas. The Service also pays expenses incident to collection of seeds or other plant materials and such portion of other activities such as seed cleaning as may be mutually agreed upon by the two parties. The work is planned jointly by the Service and the experiment station and the information and experience gained is available to both parties.

NURSERY COSTS

Mr. LAIRD. Mr. Chairman, in connection with this reduction I should like to have some figures on the nursery costs, so far as the cost of producing seed and other nursery items are concerned.

Mr. DYKES. We would be glad to supply that.

Dr. SALTER. We can tell you the amount of seed and the cost.
Mr. LAIRD. And the cost per tree of your stock.

Dr. SALTER. All right.

(The information is as follows:)

Soil Conservation Service nurseries, direct costs and production, fiscal year 1953, salaries and expenses

1 In addition to the trees, plants, grass, and legume seeds grown in large lots to supply the needs of soil conservation districts, a substantial number of species were produced in relatively small amounts for observational tests. This work includes both nursery and field trials of promising new plants or new varie. ties and strains, frequently conducted in cooperation with Federal or State agencies and which, because of the small quantities handled, involve somewhat higher cost than large scale production. In the case of seed particularly, this work involves increase of small amounts of new varieties and strains for sced certification purposes and is conducted in close cooperation with State agencies having responsibility for seed certification activities.

2 Per thousand.

$ Per pound.

Dr. SALTER. May I discuss one other aspect of this thing?

Mr. ANDERSEN. Certainly.

DEVELOPMENT OF NEW GRASSES AND LEGUMES

Dr. SALTER. The phase we have been discussing up to now is the production of seed and trees and shrubs in quantity. There is another function of the nurseries which is very vital to the soil-conservation program. At many of these nurseries we have assembled strains of new grasses and legumes from plant breeders in State experiment stations, and the Bureau of Plant Industry, and from a lot of natural collections we have made out over the country, and from foreign imports. This collection of new grasses and legumes is studied in these nurseries in small plots. The seed of those which look like they have promise is increased enough so that it can be put into a program of observational testing. The seed is distributed over the various regions of the United States, for small plantings in observational test plots. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of those observational tests.

It is out of these tests that we determine the desirability of expanding any of these strains for commercial production. After observational tests show the value of a strain over a sufficient area, we do blow it up and try to put it into commercial production.

Out of this program there are 54 new strains of grasses and legumes now in commercial seed production in the United States and certified by the responsible State agency, and 16 more are in process of certification.

These are some of the most important plant materials we have for conservation. We are very anxious to maintain this phase of the nursery program, that is, the observational testing work and the planting and studying of new strains in the nurseries.

Mr. ANDERSEN. I presume you would have to maintain 3 or 4 of these nurseries for that purpose, would you?

Dr. SALTER. We have discussed this problem with Assistant Secretary Coke and Mr. Roberts. They seem to be in general agreement with this idea. We will need about 8 of these nurseries to cover the major problem areas in the country. We would discontinue, or turn over to a State agency, mass production in these nurseries but continue them for this special purpose. We would try to get the State experiment stations to take over and operate these eight nurseries on a contract basis. In other words, we would contract with them to maintain this work and supply us with the seed for the observational testing program.

We estimate, that to carry on about 8 of these nurseries under such contracts, would take about $240,000. Then we need to maintain in our budget about $165,000 for the men who actually do the observational testing out in the field. We will also need at least one man at each of our regional offices and one in Washington to provide technical leadership in planting materials to our field staff and to districts. These men are currently being paid out of this item. The total cost of these 3 phases would run about $525,000; which exceeds the $425,000 which is left in the budget for the nursery item. Presumably we would have to take the excess out of our technical assistance to districts if the total approved for this item is $425,000.