had talked about All Souls Church and another Lutheran Church on 16th Street.

At this time they felt they may need some assistance from maybe the Red Cross to get blankets and things of this nature. They also requested at this meeting some medical assistance. They had some older women and some young children, and they may need medical assistance, and at this meeting this was requested also.

At that time they were not really promised anything, but Mr. Thurmond of the mayor's command center stated he would look into the possibility and see what they could do. At this time they had requested, in the event of inclement weather, the use of the departmental auditorium. They wanted to use the D.C. Armory.

At this time, the D.C. Armory was being used, and they could not get the D.C. Armory. We were to check out the feasibility of them using the auditorium for meetings only in the case of inclement weather. There was no talk of violence or other types of activity.

Mr. ASPINALL. Was there any evidence other than just talk that there would be any violent activity?

Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. At this point there was no evidence at all there would be any violence.

Mr. ASPINALL. At that time, Lieutenant, did you or those working with you know that some of the people who were speaking for the organization of the Trail of Broken Treaties did have criminal records?

Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. At that time, we didn't exactly know who were coming. The people who were here were Mr. Ralph Ware and Mr. Robert Burnette, and we knew nothing of the records of those people coming down to the District of Columbia.

Mr. ASPINALL. Neither one of the Belacourts was involved at that time?

Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. Not at this time.

Mr. ASPINALL. Does GSA, Mr. Casselman, have jurisdiction over West Potomac Park; or, as the lieutenant was testifying, did he testify to the cooperative actions that were taking place with the National Park Service?

Mr. CASSELMAN. Mr. Chairman, the jurisdiction over West Potomac Park is vested in the U.S. Park Service, I believe.

Mr. ASPINALL. And they were working together in this respect. Do I understand, Mr. Casselman, that after the court rules, you are responsive to their orders, and you do not act upon your own?

Mr. CASSELMAN. Yes, sir. We agreed at a meeting held at 5 p.m., Friday, November 3, that our Federal protective officers would work under the U.S. marshals. As I indicated earlier, we have no authority to serve civil process.

Mr. ASPINALL. You made that agreement. Is that the general procedure?

Mr. CASSELMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ASPINALL. Your instructions, as I understand your testimony and other evidence that has been given, Mr. Casselman, from the U.S. Marshals Service, was to avoid a confrontation; and, because of that, you, nor none of those working under your jurisdiction, were left with any power to arrest or to enter into any affirmative action to protect anything; is that correct?

Mr. CASSELMAN. Yes, sir; that was the net result of it. I think it was agreed, and properly so, that any attempt to arrest persons departing from the BIA, in the immediate vicinity of the BIA, would have precipitated some violence. These people, in my opinion, would not have come out if they knew they were to be apprehended immediately upon leaving the building.

Mr. ASPINALL. In your statement, you referred to the possible or probable cost of repair and so forth, bringing the amount up to $2,139,468. As I understand, you do not include in this figure any cost that may be necessary to replenish or restore the records that were

Mr. CASSELMAN. No, sir; that figure includes the cost of restoring approximately 7,000 cubic feet of records that were damaged or missing.

Mr. ASPINALL. Mr. Casselman, the committee asked you to bring up evidence of weapons. Would you have somebody now display the weaponry to the committee, and also the chronological events in the procuring of these weapons? These weapons are not shown in the pictures that we had of what was left. So whoever wishes to make that statement

Mr. CASSELMAN. Mr. Chairman, it is my understanding that these weapons which the committee requested to see were recovered from the BIA Building after the departure of the demonstrators.

I would not wish the committee to receive the impression that each and every person who was in that building was armed. Indeed, there were approximately 250 women and children who definitely were not armed, but these are representative samples of the weapons recovered immediately upon vacation of the building.

Mr. ASPINALL. Tell us when and how these weapons were taken. Mr. CASSELMAN. As I indicated, Mr. Chairman, these weapons were recovered right after the building was vacated. I might ask Lieutenant Rutherford to explain some of them. They were recovered by our people who secured the building shortly after 11 p.m., on Wednesday, November 8. Lieutenant Rutherford might wish to explain some of the weapons. Most of them are composed of common-use items that you find in any Government building. For example, in the top row, second over from the left, you will find a piece of class A executive furniture.

Mr. ASPINALL. Mr. Casselman, I have always been a little hesitant to go down to the offices of the administrative branch of Government, and I will be more hesitant than ever now. Go ahead.

Mr. CASSELMAN. That one chair leg is the variety you would find in any supergrade employee's office.

Mr. ASPINALL. Which is the chair leg?

Mr. CASSELMAN. The second one over.

Next to that you see a paper cutter which was dismantled. The sharp blade edge could be used as a knife.

I am not familiar with the following item. It doesn't look as menacing as the others. It is a piece of steel.

The next item perhaps Lieutenant Rutherford could explain. Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. It is a piece of wood with a taped object on the end of it similar to a tomahawk.

This is a piece of steel which is stored down in the basement of the building.

This is a portion of a flag taken off the building, and this is a portion of the flagpole.

Again, this is a part of a table leg from one of the typewriter desks. This is a part of a chair back. This is a metal object which may have come off one of the file cabinets or safes.

Again, this is a table leg from a small table.

Mr. CASSELMAN. In addition, explosive ordnance detonation teams that went in on the following morning found numerous Molotov cocktails. Lieutenant Rutherford reported sighting two pistols and a rifle, I believe.

Mr. ASPINALL. What happened to those pistols and the rifles? That was my next question. I thought this would pretty well highlight that there weren't any handguns or rifles in the building.

Mr. CASSELMAN. There were no handguns or rifles in the building when we took it over on Wednesday evening. However, there were persons in that building who were armed, as Lieutenant Rutherford can testify.

Mr. ASPINALL. Do you have anybody present here who would advise us that these people came armed?"

Mr. CASSELMAN. I have no personal knowledge of that. Lieutenant. Rutherford perhaps does.

Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. Some had knives, and there were two handguns to my knowledge. I heard there were 12 there. I saw two handguns and one 30-caliber rifle. This I saw. There were a lot of knives. In fact, I think most of the young warriors, each one carried a knife; and there were two or three machetes-that is the long knife.

Most of the young warriors, about 125 of them, set up security in the building and were armed with a knife or with a club or some other object.

On the evening of the 5th and 6th was when they really got themselves organized, where they were really armed. There was quite a bit of gasoline.

We had rumors that there was dynamite, but personally I didn't see any dynamite at this time.

Mr. ASPINALL. You didn't find any when you went into the building later on?

Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. We found no dynamite.

Mr. ASPINALL. I will have to say that our red brothers are rather ingenious in protecting themselves.

I can understand these weapons. After the confrontation and after the emotionalism that was aroused. I was hopeful there wouldn't be any evidence about having brought weapons here, because the possession of weapons--and as I understand it, you didn't know anything about this when they came. Nothing to lead you to believe there would be any weapons?

Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. No. We understood it would be peaceful, and it seemed it would be that way until after that night.

Mr. ASPINALL. I will yield to Mr. Melcher.

Mr. MELCHER. Lieutenant Rutherford, when was the first time you observed when was the first time you went into the building?

Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. That morning, on November 2, at 10 o'clock. Mr. MELCHER. Did you observe any weapons at that time?

Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. Other than knives-I didn't see any guns that day. I only saw knives.

Mr. MELCHER. What do you mean by "knives"? Hunting knives? Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. Hunting knives. Most of the young war riors wore their hunting knives.

Mr. MELCHER. Was there any threat of violence at that time?

Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. At that moment they had taken over the building. They had moved into the building, but at this time they hadn't really taken the building, but they had moved in, and there were about 100 delegates in Mr. Crow's office when I arrived there. Mr. MELCHER. Was Mr. Crow there?

Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. Yes, sir; he was there.

Mr. MELCHER. I gather they were consulting with Mr. Crow?
Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. Right.

Mr. MELCHER. This was in the morning. Were you aware of any threats of physical violence in the afternoon?

Lieutenant RUTHERFORD. At that point we were not. They were requesting visitation with some of the top officials and to see somebody to present their 20-point grievances at this time. Mr. Loesch, who is the Assistant Secretary, came over approximately 10:30 to the delegation in Mr. Crow's office. We went back to the BIA auditorium. They asked him about a letter he had circulated, and they asked him about certain other things.

They said they could not stay where they were supposed to stay because of the rats and other conditions, and they came to BIA to get help for food, housing, and medical care.

Mr. MELCHER. Mr. Casselman, were you in the building November 2?

Mr. CASSELMAN. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. MELCHER. Your testimony contains a conflicting statement with the testimony we received from Assistant Secretary Loesch yesterday. On page 4, you are testifying on late in the afternoon, November 2, there were 550 Indians present in the building.

Mr. CASSELMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MELCHER. Secretary Loesch told us yesterday there were 350 and he was there.

Mr. CASSELMAN. This is a report that I received from Mr. Grosnick. I should say that in episodes of this sort it is very difficult to get any good or reliable estimate, of exactly how many people are present and demonstrating. Mr. Grosnick perhaps can tell you how that figure was arrived at.

Mr. GROSNICK. That is just from my own observation, Mr. Melcher. I was in the building and that is what I concluded, approximately 450-some Indians inside of the building and about 100 loiterers outside in front of the building on the Constitution Avenue side. So my best estimate was, that approximately 550 Indians were either outside or inside of the building who participated in the takeover of the BIA Building.

Mr. MELCHER. That clears up a hundred. We are still a hundred off. Your testimony, Mr. Casselman, doesn't indicate the 550 Indians, that a portion of them were outside. There might have been hundreds of them outside of the building.

Mr. CASSELMAN. I say in "control of the building." Many were arrayed out front prohibiting anyone from entering the building. Mr. MELCHER. I see. I understand that.

Chief, did you see any physical violence on November 2?

peace

Mr. GROSNICK. No, I did not, and when I first arrived there I found that the doors on the Constitution side were open. Women and children were on the first floor. They seemed to be having a rather ful time of it and upstairs in the conference room there were about 50 or 60 members of a negotiating group who seemed a little more aggressive than the people occupying the auditorium and those who were milling around on the first floor, the families.

Mr. MELCHER. At no time then on November 2, as far as you know, and as far as Lt. Rutherford knows, were there any threats of physical violence to anybody?

Mr. GROSNICK. Except approximately somewhere between 4:30 and 4:45 came the first evidence of any takeover of the building.

Mr. MELCHER. What do you mean by that?

Mr. GROSNICK. Do you mean what happened?

Mr. MELCHER. Yes.

Mr. GROSNICK. About 4:45 I was in Mr. Crow's office and suddenly he turned to me and said, "The riot police are breaking into the building. I gave no such orders. I don't want that."

I was amazed, too, because I gave no such orders either.

I immediately proceeded from the second floor to the ground floor where the police office was located. On the way down I noticed that the two uniformed men who had been manning the front doors on the Constitution side were not there. A number of Indians were barricading those doors. When I got downstairs into the corridor, the hallway of the ground floor, the doors which were adjacent to the police office, the inner doors, they were barricaded. Duplicating machines and furniture were placed almost ceiling-high against the doorway.

Out in the outer vestibule there were a number of uniformed personnel. I got on top of this heap of barricade and attempted to converse with the man in charge of the operation.

I wanted to know what happened. In effect, he told me that his men had been endangered and that the Special Events Cadre had responded to an emergency call from Captain Grant and eight of his FPOs who were trapped in the FPO office.

As a matter of describing what precisely happened, Captain Grant later told me that sometime between 4:30 and 4:45 a group of Indians appeared at the police office and threatened to forcibly evict Captain Grant and the eight uniformed members who were in that police office. Captain Grant refused to leave. Then they began to barricade the outer doors which led to the courtyard and the SEC appeared upon the scene and Captain Grant and his men fought their way out of the police office, joined the SEC and in the meantime the group of Indians had now retreated behind the inner doors and were barricading them. It was at this point I arrived on the scene. There was a considerable amount of pandemonium. A bunch of young American Indians who were quite agitated, very volatile, were at the barricaded doorway. I heard glass breaking, furniture being moved around, and the situation was very tense and very volatile at that moment.