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pose an alien is permitted to come in and become naturalized, becomes a member of a labor organization, and becomes an officer of a labor organization, some people might try to show that he was inimical to the public interest.

Senator REYNOLDS. That would be a matter of interpretation for the present Secretary of Labor. If made law, it would be administered at present by the present Secretary of Labor.

Mr. EMERSON. Of course.

Senator REYNOLDS. I do not think there would be any danger from the standpoint you mentioned. The question in my mind is whether she would deport anybody.

Mr. HOUGHTELING. I take exception to that.

Senator REYNOLDS. I think I am right. I doubt whether she would deport anybody if she had her way.

Mr. EMERSON. In relation to those words, I do not know what they mean. I wish some one would give an interpretation of that.

Senator REYNOLDS. As a matter of fact, it is phraseology that I think will embody considerable elasticity.

Senator HOLMAN. I do not want to prolong the hearing, but I can give a specific example. On the Pacific coast, I know of manufactories that were closed down through the activities and the direction of alien labor organizers when they had no quarrel with their men or the men with them, over hours or conditions of labor or rates

which was caused by a jurisdictional fight between two unions. I know one operator that lost over $75,000 in 90 days through the closing down of his plant, as a result of the activities of alien organizers in labor disputes, when he had no quarrel with his men or they with bim. I call that a specific example of a man being inimical to the public interest, and I am against it.

Mr. EMERSON. I know that there are some people in the labor movement who are aliens.

Senator HOLMAN. These were leaders and directors of it, and as a result of it we have got a lot of them locked up in the penitentiary.

Mr. EMERSON. Do you think that if those men had not been there, that good Americans would have taken their places?

Senator HOLMAN. In stimulating that stuff?
Mr. EMERSON. In stimulating the organization.

Senator HOLMAN. No. Good Americans do not think that way. This particular agitator that caused so much of that trouble came from Australia.

Mr. EMERSON. I think Mr. Dave Beck is there. He is a good labor leader and he is an American. It is hardly fair to blame aliens for that.

Senator HOLMAN. We are all entitled to our opinions.
Mr. EMERSON. Yes. That is all I have to say.
Senator HOLMAN. That is enough.

Senator HEBRING. Is Mr. George Brenner present? Mrs. Edith Perry Bremen?

Senator HOLMAN. May I make a general inquiry?
Senator HERRING. Yes.

Senator HOLMAN. What is the object and purpose of the Federal Immigration Bureau?

Mr. HOUGHTELING. To enforce the immigration laws and the naturalization laws. It is the immigration and naturalization service, and its duty is to enforce and put into effect the immigration and naturalization laws.

Senator HOLMAN. And its function is not that of assistance in preparing remedial legislation?

Mr. HOUGHTELING. Like any other executive agency it stands ready to help the legislative branch and advise with the legislative branch. Legislation is entrusted to the legislative branch.

Senator HOLMAN. I understand that, but we are pretty much in the dark, I am trying to enlist the services of you people on the American side.

Mr. HOUGHTELING. We know no other side in doing our duties. STATEMENT OF MRS. EVELYN W. HERSEY, PHILADELPHIA, PA.

Senator HERRING. Please state your name. Mrs. HERSEY. Evelyn W. Hersey, of Philadelphia. Senator HERRING. Whom do you represent? Mrs. HERSEY. I am connected with Americanization organizations. I have been in social work among foreign-born communities for 17 years. I want to speak from two points of view, if I may. One is as a social worker who has known the problem in America of assimilating the many groups we have here over a period of years, not only at this crucial time, but many years during the war and afterward; and also as an American of early stock and one very much interested in the final result of that assimilation. I would like to speak for the welfare of foreign communities and American communities in relation to the practical end of this legislation, how it will affect Tom Jones, living on A Street, who is a member of a foreign community, and how it is going to affect people in Philadelphia and Chicago.

Senator HOLMAN. I gather that there is a problem in assimilating the aliens.

Mrs. HERSEY. Yes. I think there is no question about that.

My ancestors came over as refugees in 1630 and 1635. Since and, before that we had many others.

Senator HERRING. Then you are legally in this country, are you not?

Mrs. HERSEY. Next to the Indians, I should say so.

Senator HERRING. Do you want to address yourself to all these measures?

Mrs. HERSEY. I would like to discuss them briefly.
Senator HERRING. Very well.

Mrs. HERSEY. I will take first, if I may, Senator Reynolds' bill, S. 408.

Senator REYNOLDS. Just what organization do you represent?

Mrs. HERSEY. I do not really come here representing an organization. I am an executive of an Americanization organization in Philadelphia.

Senator REYNOLDS. Were you selected by them?

Mrs. HERSEY. I talked it over with the board and they were glad to have me come and give my personal expression. It is my own personal opinion. I guess that is more definite than to say I represent the organization as such, although they were very glad to have me

I would gather that the purpose of S. 408 is to really try to find the illegal entrants in our communities. Is that not the main purpose?

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Senator REYNOLDS. Yes; and ascertain the number of aliens in the United States.

Mrs. HERSEY. With those two purposes in mind, I was trying to picture how foreign communities in Baltmore, Philadelphia, and New England, where I have worked, and it seems to me the only way we could accomplish that would be by a complete registration of all our citizens. I cannot quite picture that we are going to get the illegal entrants registered unless we have a complete law.

Take those who have dark eyes and dark hair, like myself, although being from early American stock. I know people sometimes picture me as Italian or Armenian. Sometimes they start talking Italian to me, although I am neither. I have to carry a birth certificate around to prove

that. Senator Reynolds. Do you think everybody should be fingerprinted and registered?

Mrs. HERSEY. I do not like to go into the whole problem of complete registration, because there is a good deal of feeling about it; but it seems to me, in order to get what you are after, that would be the only way to do it. I do not see how you could do it any other way and accomplish what you want to accomplish.

Senator REYNOLDS. Of course, under my bill, they could register only those who are aliens.

Mrs. HERSEY. How would you know whether I am an alien or not? Senator REYNOLDS. We would have to make inquiry.

Mrs. HERSEY. I have to carry a birth certificate around. I live in a town where I could get one.

Senator REYNOLDS. A good many people would not be in the alien classification.

Mrs. HERSEY. That is true, of course.

Senator REYNOLDS. I do not see why anyone should mind it. Jf anyone should ask me if I were a Swede, I would consider it a compliment.

Mrs. HERSEY. But how would you know whether they are aliens or not? I do not think it would be effective. I do not have any particular objection to it.

Senator REYNOLDS. What we would have to do would be to tax them and make them tell.

Mrs. HERSEY. I think you would have to tax us all. I do not happen to one of those who violently opposed fingerprinting.

Senator REYNOLDS. I do not mind being fingerprinted. I have been fingerprinted. I have a picture of the Vice-President when he was fingerprinted.

Mrs. HERSEY. My feeling is that you would have to include every: body if you are going to carry out the purposes of the bill; otherwise, it would not be effective.

Senator REYNOLDS. It would be much more expensive to register and fingerprint 135,000,000 people than to check and register and fingerprint 6,000,000 people.

Mrs. HERSEY. I do not think you would catch them.

Senator REYNOLDS. If we can catch 130,000,000, certainly we can catch 6,000,000. Anyway when we did catch one and he was not registered we would know he is here unlawfully and out he would go.

Mrs. HERSEY. Yes; but they would not go voluntarily, as the 130,000,000 would. From a practical point of view, that would be my feeling. That is my feeling on S. 408. Perhaps there is some way to work that out, but at this time I do not see it.

Then I would like to speak for a minute on S. 407 and S. 409, which are two bills to cut the number coming into this country, S. 409 is more drastic than S. 407. I think all of us who are close to the relief problem and the problem of unemployment for the last few years are so weary with the burden of it that we feel that anything that would jeopardize our situation must be carefully watched. I think there are elements of the situation that we overlook when we are working on cutting immigration in general.

I would like to speak briefly on my own feeling as to including the Western Hemisphere in the quotas. When we need so badly to establish friendly relations at the present time, and knowing how Canada and South America feel about cutting down on immigration, I would feel anything we do in relation to those countries ought to be worked out with the State Department, or else we may find we are losing more than we are gaining.

Then, from the point of view of cutting immigration completely, as S. 409 would do, I have another picture in mind of one of our communities, a daughter who wanted to come over to her father. This man wanted my help to get his daughter over here. He was an Italian. His wife was paralyzed and he could not bring her when he came. He had a young daughter and she had to stay there and look after her monther. The mother died a few months ago, and he brought his daughter in. She is not going into the labor market. She will be a consumer. I think by making that so drastic we are going to hurt some of our communities. I do not say I am going to open the door, because I am not. We have got to be very careful about the people who come in, as to whether they might be selfsupporting or not.

In many instances we would be adding consumers and not those who would enter the labor market.

Senator REYNOLDs. You speak of these families being reunited.
Mrs. HERSEY. Yes.
Senator REYNOLDS. Why do they not reunite in Italy?

Mrs. HERSEY. They are doing a good deal of it right now. Mussolini is paying their passage back. Some are going that way.

Senator REYNOLDS. The Germans are doing the same thing.

Mrs. HERSEY. Yes; the Germans are doing the same thing. There are others who ought to go that way. But I would hesitate to put on the statute books something so completely drastic as this bill. I would also be opposed to letting any large group come in in a wholesale way.

I think we will have to work that out in some way, and not let in what we had before the war, but let in the small number that is now coming in. My own feeling about that, having worked with the Immigration Department, and with all due respect to the State Department, having to send to the consuls the affidavits they require, and knowing how difficult it is for these people to get into this country, that we should not enact anything so drastic as these bills. If you get into this country through the consul under Mr. Warren, you certainly will not become a public charge. The documents that are sent over are thicker than this sindicating), showing that somebody is looking after that.

Senator REYNOLDS. Will you excuse me just a moment?
Mrs. HERSEY. Yes.

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Senator REYNOLDS. I will ask the representative of the State Department if it is not true that an order has been issued recently to our consuls abroad not to be so stringent in issuing immigration visas to aliens coming to the United States for fear of their becoming public charges? I will ask you if such an order as that was not recently issued ?

Mr. WARREN. I have been in charge of that division since February 1, 1938. There has been no such order since that time.

Senator REYNOLDS. I read upon the floor of the Senate less than 2 months ago a copy of such an order or instruction which suggested to the consuls, according to my best recollection, that they should not be so strict in regard to issuing immigration visas to aliens “likely to become a public charge." I will be very happy to get a copy of that and send it to the State Department. I am under the impression that order was issued in 1937.

Mr. WARREN. Yes. The instruction to which you refer was one of two circular instructions, in December 1936 and January 1937.

Senator REYNOLDS. They did tell them not to be so strict?

Mr. WARREN. I can not quote the language, but the substance was in effect that consular officers in recent years, prior to 1936, in construing the liability to become a public charge clause, had construed it not as to the probability of becoming a public charge, but that any alien coming to the United States might possibly become a public charge.

Senator REYNOLDS. That is the order I referred to and it has resulted in a big increase in immigration. Such administrative discretion to restrict or to not restrict, ought to be put on a more definite basis of substantive law as my bill s. 407 proposes.

Mr. Warren. The instruction was to the effect that consular officers, in reviewing applications for immigration visas, should bear in mind that the law referred to the likelihood of the applicant becoming a public charge, and not to the possibility of it.

Senator REYNOLDS. That is the one to which I referred.

Senator HOLMAN. Was the thought expressed that the consuls should not be so strict in their interpretation of the language?

Mr. WARREN. That consuls should construe it with reference to the likelihood of becoming a public charge in terms of reasonable probability rather than a mere possibility.

Senator HOLMAN. And that would have a tendency to make them more liberal? You knew that fact when Senator Reynolds referred to it; when he reminded you of it?

Mr. WARREN. I was referring to my own administration.
Senator HOLMAN. But you knew it from secret information.

I am asking this question, Mr. Chairman. It is all new to me, but I am being impressed more and more with the idea that the Government bureau men are not trying to help us. They made their estimate here of 34 million when the actual figure was 3,800,000.

They had to be reminded of it. I think you people should help us, not interpose obstacles in our way.

Mrs. HERSEY, I would like to add a little about my own practical experience. I do not know anything about the order. I know the

I results. This last week I got word from a consul in a foreign country, where there was a white woman who wanted to come over to her husband, and he received an affidavit that the husband was earning $65 a week and had $4,000 in the bank. That consul said that was

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