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in a single year; yet the 1930 census showed 6,200,000, a decrease of 1,100,000.

Senator STEWART. A decrease of 1,100,000.

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. Now we have dropped down in the past 8 or 9 years to a mean minimum of 23,000, for the first time in the history of the country.

Let me give you an example. Last year we admitted 67,000 immigrants and 25,000 aliens left the United States. That would leave 42,000. 165,000 were naturalized.

Senator STEWART. When was that? In what time?
Mr. SHAUGNESSY. Last year.
Senator STEWART. 165,000 became naturalized citizens during 1938?
Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. That is correct.

Subtracting the 42,000 from 165,000 leaves about 120,000 less. We estimate that about 100,000 aliens died. Based on a rough estimate of 4,000,000 aliens, you will find that an estimate of 100,000 deaths is not extravagant, because we must remember that the average age of aliens in the United States is greater than the average age of the whole population, so the mortality rates are greater. So if we add the 100,000 estimated deaths, taken into account the naturalization cases and the departures as compared with arrivals we begin to approach the figure. Then there were perhaps five or six thousand derivative cases—that is, children who derived citizenship through the naturalization of their parents. That leaves a net loss in the alien population of last year, estimated at around a quarter of a million. That takes into consideration all the elements that go to make up the alien population, except the number that may have come into the country illegally. No man knows just what that number is, but I am certain it was not a quarter of a million, or anywhere near it.

Senator STEWART. According to the estimates there must have been deported, or, at least, departed from this country, between 1920 and the first of this year, a period of 18 years, some 2,400,000.

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. Do you have those statistics before you, Senator.

Senator STEWART. The annual report of the Secretary of Labor, at page 111, gives departures at 852,033 over a period of years from 1925 to 1938.

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. That is correct.

Senator STEWART. Also, it gives during that period of time arrivals of immigrants amounting to 2,837,287.

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. That is correct.

Senator STEWART. According to that, Mr. Shaughnessy, the arrivals exceeded the departures by more than one million, in the period from 1925 to 1938.

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. That is, over a period.

Senator STEWART. By about 1,300,000. Now, how do you estimate that we actually have fewer aliens here?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. Because of naturalizations and deaths.

Senator STEWART. You have total aliens naturalized during that time of 2,200,000.

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. And a tremendous number of deaths.

These are the elements that make up the population: Arrivals, permanent arrivals, permanent departures, naturalizations, deaths, derivative citizenship, illegal entries.

Senator STEWART. By the method you used you have arrived at a figure of 3,800,000, in round numbers—less than 4,000,000. Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. That is correct. I know of no other method. Senator STEWART. That is the best method you could use?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. It is the only one I know of. I know of no other.

Senator STEWART. Do you have any estimate of the number that entered this country illegally?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. I cannot give it. There is no way, in my humble opinion, to determine that. If we knew, we would deport them.

Senator STEWART. The department is constantly finding numbers of them here each year?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. That is correct.

Senator STEWART. Do you have any figures as to how many you have ascertained?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. I think we have them roughly. We expelled 18,553 last year for all causes.

Senator STEWART. Did you find others who were not deported? Do you have any figures on that?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. Not deported?
Senator STEWART. Yes. Were they all deported?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. There are current cases. We always have several thousand cases in process or pending, of course, unfortunately, we cannot locate all the aliens in the United States that are subject to deportation.

Senator STEWART. With reference to the 3,800,000 in the country now, how many of those are in process of becoming naturalized? How many have applied for naturalization papers?

Mr. SĦAUGHNESSY. I imagine that there must be-well, may we get that and submit it later for the record? Senator STEWART. I wish you would do so.

Would you say 600,000?

NOTE.—The number of apparently valid declarations of intention on file with the Immigration and Naturalization Service which have been outstanding less than 7 years (the legal time limit of validity) amounts to approximately 700,000, according to the Statistical Division of the Service, although some of these may have been invalidated by death or departure from the country.

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. It is about 700,000.

Senator STEWART. According to some figures I have seen, that would still leave something over 3,000,000 who have made application.

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. That is correct.

Senator STEWART. Under our laws most of the quotas are taken up, are they not?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. Most of the small quotas, but the huge ones, like Great Britain and the Irish Free State are hardly touched.

Senator STEWART. Why is that?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. Because the Irish Free State and Great Britain have not been sending aliens to us for many years,

Senator STEWART. Could you supply a break-down to show the various nationalities?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. Yes; we could give that to you. Yes; we have it.

Mr. HOUGHTELING. Page 99 gives the quota rates and how many were admitted.

Senator STEWART. I mean out of the three or four million. Do you have any figures that show the various nationalities of that group?

Mr. HOUGHTELING. No.
Senator STEWART. That this group is composed of?
Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. We could not get that from the census.

Mr. HOUGHTELING. Do you mean the nationality of unnaturalized aliens?

Senator STEWART. That is right.

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. No; we do not distinguish that. That would not be shown.

Senator STEWART. You do not have that, showing the foreign nations?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. We can give you the nationalities of some 6,200,000 foreign-born residents (including naturalized citizens) as shown by the 1930 census.

Senator STEWART. May we have that in the record?
Senator HERRING. Yes.
(The matter referred to is here set forth in full, as follows:)

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Aliens, or foreign-born population of the United States in 1930 not reported natural

ized, by countries of birth Country of birth: Belgium....

22, 313 Czechoslovakia

190, 237 Denmark.

44, 961 Finland.

69, 769 France...

49, 949 Germany (including Austria)

612, 407 Great Britain

447, 379 Northern Ireland.

57, 084 Irish Free State

252, 619 Greece

96, 467 Hungary

121, 691 Italy

895, 777 Lithuania

101, 731 Netherlands.

44, 408 Norway

101, 117 Poland

628, 093 Portugal.-

56, 912 Rumania.

58, 116 Soviet Union (Russia)

435, 658 Spain.

47, 257 Sweden..

162, 839 Switzerland..

36, 868 Yugoslavia

113, 536 Canada..

619, 864 Other countries.

1, 017, 561

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Total.

6, 284, 613 Senator STEWART. What is the status of these aliens in this country. How are they employed? Do you have any figures showing how many are engaged in industry?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. We do not. We may be able to get that from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Senator STEWART. Will you do that? (Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. Yes.

NOTE.- Bureau of Labor Statistics advises that there is no such break-down in existence. Few industries keep statistics of the numbers or nationalities of their alien employees.

139737–39–

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Senator STEWART. Do you

know how many are on relief? Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. No. That is not within our jurisdiction. Senator STEWART. Will you procure that?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. I will try to get it. After study I feel it would not be possible as this Service has no jurisdiction.

Senator STEWART. Do you know how many are on the W. P. A. rolls?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. Just from what I have read in the papers.
Mr. HoughTELING. That is legally impossible now, is it not?
Senator STEWART. The papers report a number of names.

Mr. SHAUGHENESSY. I was informed by the W. P. A. that they require every employee from the top down to submit an affidavit of citizenship. They have a penalty provided for false affidavits. We are completing arrangements with W. P. A. to check citizenship for those in any doubtful cases, so that in any case where a substantial doubt arises we can investigate the case and give them information, because we have the record.

Senator STEWART. Can you give us an estimate of how many of these aliens are employed in industry or elsewhere?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. I will go to the division that may have that jurisdiction, the Bureau of Labor Statistics?

Senator STEWART. You say you will procure it?
Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. Yes.
Senator STEWART. Can you give us an estimate?
Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. No.

(Mr. Shaughnessy later advised Bureau of Labor Statistics bas no such records.)

Mr. HOUGHTELING. I can tell you something about some of the reasons why aliens do not sooner become naturalized. Take a man 50 years old who came over in the days of open immigration before 1924.

Senator STEWART. In the days of the open door?

Mr. HOUGHTELING. In the days of the open door. Perhaps he came over with a scant knowledge of the English language, and lived in a community where they did not require a great deal of English language, and he was afraid of the educational test which we require for naturalization.

Senator STEWART. Does your department keep any check on the activities of aliens in this country?

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. No. When an alien is lawfully admitted to the United States, we have no follow-up system. The next time we get in touch with him is when he becomes deportable, or when he comes in for naturalization, for return permits, and so forth. We do not establish any follow-up jurisdiction over aliens.

Senator STEWART. Now, with reference to the first bill that Senator Reynolds introduced, why would there be any serious objection to keeping a check on these aliens, knowing who they are and where they are, and keeping complete data on their activities and full information about them, how long they have been here, what they do, whether they work at all, whether they are employed on jobs formerly held by native born or naturalized Americans?

Mr. ŠHAUGHNESSY. Somewhat similar to the continental system. Senator STEWART. How would that be objectionable?

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Mr. SHAUGHNESSy. There are two schools of thought on that question. In our letter, which the clerk of the committee has, we have given four reasons.

Senator STEWART I wonder what the objections would be.
Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. We are a little bit of everything-
Senator STEWART. We are a hodgepodge.

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. We do not have the same national characteristics that those other countries have.

Mr. HOUGHTELING. I have one answer to that, Senator. On page 113 of my report, which is a part of the report of the Secretary of Labor, I report the fact that we have a staff of 3,775 persons, of whom 1,186 are inspectional and investigative employees, 139 are naturalization examiners, 850 are border-patrol employees, 777 are clerks, and 49 are interpreters, and a custodial force of 436 employees. Now, with that force of 1,186 investigative and inspectional employees wé have to check 54,000,000 individual entries into this country.

Senator STEWART. If we should give you more employees would it be more effective?

Mr. HOUGHTELING. I would have to have them to make it more effective.

Senator STEWART. I think you should have them. This looks to me like one question that Americans ought to be able to get together

I have no desire to assume a critical or an unreasonable attitude on the subject, but I think under conditions in this country and as they are in the world today, it is time to get a very careful check on the type of our citizenship.

on.

STATEMENT OF JAMES L. HOUGHTELING, COMMISSIONER OF IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION, DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

Senator HERRING. Mr. Houghteling, do you wish to make a statement?

Mr. HOUGHTELING. We have been commenting on the workability of these proposed measures, about certain phases of which, as you have guessed, we do not think highly.

I am a law-enforcing officer. Senator Reynolds asked why we had not expressed opinions on certain matters of policy. I do not think that is our function. We comment on the workability of proposed laws. Since I have been Commissioner I do not think we have deviated from that policy. We are prepared to enforce any law that is adopted by the Congress of the United States, if it is workable. There are some laws that have been proposed that I should hate, and I think anyone in my position would hate to try to enforce, because they are so vague and impractical.

I have little or nothing to add to what we have said to the committee in writing in commenting on these various bills.

Senator Holman. This question is probably prompted by my inexperience in national legislation; but it seems very strange to me that those who know most about the subject of national administration never make a constructive suggestion. I think the administrative branch of the Government is lacking in that respect. I have a notion that there has come a time in the history of our country when there should be a changed policy in the matter of immigration. Naturally,

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