Mr. NOYES. May I refer to that in just a minute? I am coming to it, if you will permit me?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. NOYES. I would like to claim this, gentlemen, that regarding the present duty, from the public's standpoint it has proven itself almost ideal, and for the following reasons:

First. I call your attention to the ad valorem equivalents of this duty. When the duty was established it was a duty of about 75 or 80 per cent ad valorem equivalent, according to the records of your Department of Customs. It then changed from 79 per cent down to 71, to 62, to 54, and to 45. For the last fiscal year the ad valorem equivalent was 45 per cent. The reason for this is apparent, when I tell you the following facts:

The duty, in part specific-in large part specific has remained constant. The raw material and labor have gone up. Consequently the ad valorem equivalent has reduced itself until, as I stated, for the last fiscal year it has been equivalent to 45 per cent. It has been an ideal duty, therefore, in that particular.

Second. The importations under this duty have increased, and are three times now what they were under the first years of the tarif. Third. This tariff has exceedingly benefited American labor. Our concern and although a young man, comparatively, I am among the oldest now in the business- -our concern did start in business along in the nineties. We have our labor records for 1896, and as against the year 1896 we have advanced the rate of wages to our females 128 per cent; we have advanced the rates of wages to our men 87 per cent. My fourth claim that this duty has proven ideal is this: That the public has benefited by reason of the duty. Strange as it may seem, from the facts that I am going to give you in a moment, the prices of vegetable-ivory buttons are no higher to-day than they were in the year 1897. Indeed, some items are shown to be lower than the prices prevailing at that time. Now, gentlemen, that is in the face of, the fact that raw material is about 300 per cent more than it was-300 per cent of what it was in 1897-and labor has nearly doubled. I do claim, Mr. Chairman, as a manufacturer, that we have made progress in invention, progress in perfecting methods, and the public has had the benefit of it in our industry. Our duty, therefore, has proven ideal, Mr. Chairman, for the four reasons that I have submitted. This duty is justified. I think we have to present to your honorable body labor statistics comparing wages in this country and foreign countries that are perhaps unequaled by any that have been submitted to you. I refer, first, to the labor statistics that we will submit to you furnished by the United States consuls at the various points where this industry is located in Europe. We have their reports, and in very comprehensive form. They have been compiled in a brief which we will file with you, if you will permit us to do so. Briefly, on basis of the figures furnished us by the American consuls, the foreign wage in England, Germany, Austria, and Italy is 32 per cent of that in this country. Those are figures based on consular reports.

Secondly, I wish to testify to you, personally, on this subject. In the last few years I have visited Europe twice. I have made it a

point to call on every competitor that I have in those countries, so far as I know them. I have conferred with them; I have made investigation as to wages paid, and I wish to state to you on my personal knowledge that the wages paid in Germany are about 35 per cent of those paid here; that the wages paid in Austria are about 30 per cent; and in Italy 25 per cent. Labor is the one important item in the button business, and it is very obvious from the history that the button business of the world has followed cheap labor.

Mr. KITCHIN. Which one of those countries is making the cheaper product?

Mr. NOYES. You see, with the ivory buttons, it is not a question of cheapness

Mr. KITCHIN. The cheaper product, I say. With which one of those countries have you the keener competition?

Mr. NOYES. Oh, Italy has the lowest wages and the most efficient labor. I have told you that we have presented the labor statisticsMr. KITCHIN. Since you have increased your labor wage about 100 per cent you are turning out cheaper product?

Mr. NOYES. We are selling our product at no higher prices, and, if anything, lower, by reason of the improvements in processes and in methods of manufacture.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you state the amount of your production? Mr. NOYES. I gave you the figures of the census, Mr. Underwood, so far as we have them. I further have this to say to you, gentlemen, that I have written statements in my possession, as regards wages in the foreign countries, which I believe are absolutely authentic. I will ask the privilege of submitting those to you, without having them appear in the public records. Those statements are signed. Your reading of them will reveal my reason for asking that. I believe they will justify all the claims I have made here regarding the percentage of labor cost in these foreign countries.

The CHAIRMAN. I will say this to you: It is not necessary for you to publish a brief in the printed hearings, if you do not desire to do so. Mr. NOYES. I do not ask permission to publish any brief.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you may do it or not, as you please, and what you submit to the committee will be treated confidentially, unless the committee determines that to defend its case it has got to use the material.

Mr. NOYES. That is perfectly satisfactory.

The CHAIRMAN. And if you submit anything to the committee, you have got to recognize that we have the right to use it, if we wish to. Mr. NOYES. These are signed statements by authorities in Europe, which you will recognize when you see them. It would embarrass me to have them appear in the public record.

The CHAIRMAN. You will have to trust that to our discretion.
Mr. NOYES. Yes; I will trust the matter entirely to you.

Mr. FORDNEY. You may request that unless we find it necessary to make them public, we do not do so.

Mr. NOYES. Yes.

Mr. HAMMOND. I understood you to say, in response to a question by the chairman, that you did not wish your brief published?

Mr. NOYES. Oh, no, sir. We want all of the data we submit published.

Mr. HAMMOND. In the record?

Mr. NOYES. Yes, except this one particular matter-some foreign statements, which are addressed to me personally.

Mr. HAMMOND. I understand.

Mr. NOYES. It is only that one question. And even without those, gentlemen-they simply corroborate the statements of the American consuls. and the accuracy of my personal statements.

Mr. HAMMOND. I understand, but did you state in answer to a question by the chairman, that you did not want your brief published? Mr. NOYES. Oh, no; everything we submit to you we wish published. I also wish to state to you that not only from the standpoint of labor has the foreigner the advantage against us, but he also has an advantage in the raw material. I also wish to state to you that the efficiency of labor of the Italians who are engaged in this business, is very high. The northern Italians, who are located in the small towns along the foothills of northern Italy, are a class of working people more like Americans than I have ever met, and I was tremendously impressed with the efficiency of that labor. It is the same class of labor that has been engaged over there in the automobile industry, and has developed into very high class labor.

Mr. RAINEY. Do they come over here and work in your factories? Mr. NOYES. Yes; we have Italians in our factory. The northern Italians very seldom come to this country, however, as you perhaps know. The northern Italians stay at home and are engaged in manufacturing. I want to state to you gentlemen that a change in the tariff will not, in any way, benefit the consumer. You see, we are dealing with an article of style, that is sold because of style and effect, at prices that are apparent from the exhibits, of five to ten times over the price of the ordinary cheap buttons-composition, bone and buttons of that type. Our buttons are bought largely for the effect and novelty on novelty clothing. At the same time, the cost of those buttons on a suit of clothes is very trivial, and it would be impossible to figure almost any change that would result in the cost of a garment by reason of a change in the tariff.

Mr. FORDNEY. What is the difference between a gross and a great gross?

Mr. NOYES. A gross is 12 dozen. A great gross is 12 times that12 times a gross.

Mr. FORDNEY. A man in here this morning referred to the duty on a great gross

Mr. NOYES (interposing). It is just 12 times a gross.

Mr. FORDNEY. And I figured on 144 buttons, and he was figuring on 1,728 ?

Mr. NOYES. Exactly.

Mr. FORDNEY. And he said if the duty were reduced from 40 per cent to 25 per cent on those 1,728 buttons, that the consumer of clothing that got half a dozen of those buttons on a suit, or a little dress for a child, would get the benefit of that difference in the tariff, and it would be about 3 mills on a suit of clothes with a dozen buttons on it, would it not?

Mr. NOYES. I should think just about that, without figuring it accurately. It is an infinitesimal amount.

Mr. FORDNEY. I thank you for giving it to me correctly.

Mr. HULL. Why is the cost of material greater to an American manufacturer than to those in Europe? It comes from the same place in South America, does it not?

Mr. NOYES. Yes; but there are two reasons for that. In the first place, we are a very small part of the ivory-button business of the world. In Germany, Austria, and especially in Italy, they manufacture for all the world-for England, for Mexico, for China, and for all countries of the world. The amount they handle is tremendously large compared with what we do. Furthermore, the gathering and shipping of this product from Ecuador and South America is almost exclusively in the hands of Germans, and they have constantly held us up in New York and sometimes literally forced us to pay exorbitant prices compared with the prices that they were obtaining in Hamburg at the given moment. In fact, frequently, in order to get supplies, we have to go to Hamburg and buy them and have them come over here.

Mr. HULL. Is there any difference in the supply of this raw material?

Mr. NOYES. It seems abundant so far.

Mr. HULL. Do they not make alcohol out of the nuts also?

Mr. NOYES. An effort was made to make alcohol out of the waste, but the concern that attempted to do it failed and went into the hands of a receiver.

Mr. HARRISON. They make oil out of them, do they not?

Mr. NOYES. No.

Mr. HARRISON. Do they not make oil out of palm nuts?

Mr. NOYES. Possibly, but not out of these nuts, as far as I know. Mr. HAMMOND. Do you export any ivory buttons?

Mr. NOYES. No, sir; I think, under the circumstances we have, it shows it would be impossible to do so.

Mr. HAMMOND. None are exported?

Mr. NOYES. I do not see how it would be possible.

Mr. HAMMOND. You think they are not exported?

Mr. NOYES. I have no means of knowing. The figures of the customhouse department would show. I would not spend two minutes in an effort to do so.

Mr. HARRISON. You have been engaged for 20 years in making buttons?

Mr. NOYES. Approximately that time.

Mr. HARRISON. And in a general way, you are familiar with the manufacture of all kinds of buttons?

Mr. NOYES. To some little extent.

Mr. HARRISON. Have you been present in the room here for the last two days?

Mr. NOYES. At certain periods.

Mr. HARRISON. And have you heard the various importers of buttons testify before the committee?

Mr. NOYES. In what respect, Mr. Harrison, have you in mind? Mr. HARRISON. Well, I have been very much struck with the unanimity of opinion among the gentlemen who have preceded you on the button proposition.

Mr. HARRISON. I have been very much struck with the unanimity of opinion among the gentlemen who have preceded you on the button proposition, their judgment being that the duties upon all kinds of buttons ought to be reduced to about 25 per cent ad valorem, excepting the pearl buttons, which they thought ought to be kept at the present rate of specific duty, which is about 64 per cent, if I

recollect it; and these statements did not proceed from such manufacturers, but from importers, and the striking part of it was that they all seemed to have the same idea. Have you any explanation of that?

Mr. NOYES. I think I perhaps can offer some, Mr. Harrison.

Mr. HARRISON. Perhaps I may ask you one or two questions

about it.

Mr. NOYES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRISON. Do you manufacture the vegetable-ivory buttons and sell to jobbers?

Mr. NOYES. No, sir; we do not. To a great extent the tendency of the business has been to sell more and more direct from the manufacturer to the consumer, and we have largely accomplished that, and as regards the jobbers who have testified here, they buy, if at all, very few vegetable ivory buttons. I can only say this, of course they have taken offense at the fact that they have gone directly to the trade instead of selling through their hands.

Mr. HARRISON. In other words they are jobbers of domestic buttons when they can get hold of them, as well as importers of foreign buttons?

Mr. NOYES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRISON. Is it true that the other kinds of button manufacturers excepting the pearl buttons are also selling directly to retailers or to the consumer?

Mr. NOYES. I think in some cases and in a number of cases they do; a large number of cases.

Mr. HARRISON. Is it true as to the pearl-button manufacturers that they do not sell to the consumers, but sell to jobbers?

Mr. NOYES. I think that in a large measure the pearl buttons are sold through these jobbers who have testified here before your committee.

Mr. HARRISON. So that their market for buying buttons is more or less confined to the pearl-button manufacturers of the United States and the foreign manufacturers of other kinds of buttons?

Mr. NOYES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRISON. So their interests under those circumstances are to increase their market of foreign buttons by cutting the duty down and hold on to their market of domestic buttons by keeping the duty up on pearl buttons?

Mr. NOYES. I think that might be an obvious conclusion, Mr. Harrison.

Mr. HARRISON. That has been a very great mystery, and I am very glad if I have succeeded in explaining it away.

Mr. NOYES. I think it is but fair to say, as I understand it, and as known in the trade, these selfsame jobbers are interested, some of them, in plants manufacturing pearl buttons.

Mr. HARRISON. I think the last of these gentlemen who appeared here stated they were not themselves, but if I had had this information at the time they were on the stand I think I should have asked them about their selling agreements with the pearl button manufac

turers.

Mr. PALMER. There was one that was.

Mr. HARRISON. Was there?