Japanese. There are a small number at Seagoville, Tex., which we want to abandon. It is made up of German family groups of husbands, wives, and a few children.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. I hope we are feeding them pretty well.
Commissioner CARUSI. Adequately.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. I just want to make sure that the record is right.

Commissioner CARUSI. At Crystal City, Tex., we have Japanese and German family groups mixed; more Japanese than Germans.

At Ellis Island there are a few. At Gloucester City, N. J., which is an immigration detention station primarily, they handle some interned seamen there; and then we have some at Algiers, La.

Mr. ALLEN. What do you have down there?

Commissioner CARUSI. There are about 35 Germans-something like that, about 35 Germans.

Mr. ALLEN. Are there any Japs there?

Commissioner CARUSI. There are no Japanese in Algiers.

Mr. ALLEN. If it is permissible, I would like to ask if the Department of Justice intends to establish a Jap camp down there; and the reason I ask that is that I have received a number of protests against it and I have not heard of it being established, and yet I am getting the protests against it. It is a long way from my district but my people are taking an interest in it.

Commissioner CARUSI. Well, it has not been established and I am not aware of a plan to establish it there.

Mr. ALLEN. Thank you; I will write my people and tell them.

Mr. KEARNEY. Don't you think they should have the benefit of the southern climate?

Commissioner CARUSI. If I may count these up for you, there are six camps exclusively for internment and then there are three others which are essentially immigration detention stations but in which we have interned some alien enemies.

Mr. REES. Why have you those camps with only a few enemies; as, for example, 35 in 1 camp?

Commissioner CARUSI. That is a detention camp. It is probably easier to handle that particular camp; they may come from that particular part of the country, or it may be that special disciplinary problems have arisen and we have found it advisable to put them in those places. Then, too, some places are more secure; and some aliens do not get along with others. We would prefer to have them all in the larger camps.

Mr. LESINSKI. Commissioner Carusi, I notice you have certain stations where you can detain 20, 30, or 40 people. Those are small stations and why do you have them there, rather than have larger groups?

Commissioner CARUSI. That is not the primary reason for their being in those small groups, but we have the space at different places and it is rather easier for us to take care of the number within our facilities. We are making better use of our facilities that way. Mr. LESINSKI. Isn't Algiers on the Mississippi River?

Commissioner CARUSI. I am sorry my geography is such that I do not know.

Mr. LESINSKI. Doesn't that river go on a rampage sometimes and carry away buildings on the flood?

Mr. GOSSETT. Mr. Chairman, have we finished talking about aliens? Chairman DICKSTEIN. No.

Take your next step: Have we any aliens of Japanese extraction but not American-born in any of these camps?

Commissioner CARUSI. Yes, indeed.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. And they could be deported?

Commissioner CARUSI. That is one point that Mr. Wechsler is going to speak on; he studied the law.

Mr. ALLEN. I would like to know just what we are in a position to do with these people; I understand they do not want them back in California-referring to the Japs; they do not want them back in California and that is understandable, and I do not understand that there is any area that wants them. My people do not want them. I do now know of any area that wants them. Just what can we do? What is your program?

Commissioner CARUSI. That is a difficult question to answer. If they are going to live in this country, they must live somewhere. I think it becomes a matter of local concern of the particular locality to which these Japanese people go or to which the War Relocation Authority or some other Government agency seeks to send them. Your guess at it is as good as mine. If there is no place to which they can go, I do not know where you are going to send them.

Mr. ALLEN. Have we got to leave them here?

Commissioner CARUSI. No. In that connection you must just remember this, that the deportation of persons is limited to those who are not American citizens. If they are American citizens, they have a right to remain here.

Mr. ALLEN. That is right.

Commissioner CARUSI. If they are not American citizens, in order to deport them they must have a country to which you can deport them, and it would be worth while for this committee to consider in the peace treaty or agreements or compacts entered into in connection with this war that some provision should be made or thought given to the question that when we are ready to deport any of these alien enemies, Japanese particularly, that those countries agree to receive them and there will be no question about it.

Mr. ALLEN. Don't you imagine that Japan will be ready to agree right down the line with us when we get through with her?

Commissioner CARUSI. I hope we do a good enough job, but it must be worked out with much study; but if you do not work it out so that someone will take them, and if nobody will take them, it is just one of those things.

Mr. ALLEN. There is such a feeling in this country about those people, and it is understandable; and it is very doubtful if they would ever be welcomed among our people.

Commissioner CARUSI. That is to be understood.

Mr. ALLEN. I do not think I am overdrawing the picture.

Commissioner CARUSI. I understand; and, of course, that is a very important problem.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. Along those lines, Commissioner, we have a number of native-born American Japanese and I think Mr. Biddle, the Attorney General, has done an excellent job. At least 6,000 native-born Japanese expatriated themselves by signing an expatriation agreement.

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Commissioner CARUSI. I believe that many of them have applied. Chairman DICKSTEIN. Now I want to get to the point that the committee should give some attention to. Assuming that the war is over, and I hope it will be over very soon, and the Japanese people do not want to take them back, what will you do with them?

Commissioner CARUSI. That is precisely the kind of thing that should be a part of the negotiations.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. That is right.

Commissioner CARUSI. You must remember those Japanese who were born in this country particularly; in regard to them the law is not too clear-I am speaking generally now-particularly those who were born in the last 20 years, youngsters 18, 19, 20, and 21 years of age; they are really a problem. They never were Japanese; they were Americans at birth, and there is some question as to whether even under the dual nationality laws they would be Japanese. Consequently they have never been Japanese. They have been Americans all their lives; when they renounce their American citizenship, they become stateless. They do not belong to Japan any more than to Mexico or Argentina or any other country. Consequently when you consider deporting them to the land of their origin, it would mean deporting them to the United States.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. That is right, and that is exactly the information I want to get on that point. If that must happen, don't you think there ought to be some registration act by which they ought to be put under parole, by a certain act that Congress may pass.

Mr. KEARNEY. I think the Commissioner made, a very good suggestion, that after all, when it comes to the conference at the peace table, that is the place to iron out all of these problems.

Commissioner CARUSI. I should think so, but if it should turn out that it is not done at the peace table or by formal process, resulting in some of these men remaining in the United States, of course, the Department of Justice records will be in existence showing that they renounced their American citizenship in time of war with the country of their ancestors, and that puts a stain on them; and that they chose to remain that way, choosing internment rather than loyalty to the United States, and all this in time of war. I think that puts us on notice to keep an eye on them if they remain in this country. They are stateless; they are no longer Americans, and because of what they did in time of war they certainly are something for special consideration.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. I think you have made that very clear.

Mr. LESINSKI. Commissioner Carusi, don't you think, when the war is over, that we could remove all those Japanese to some of the islands in the South Pacific and get them away from the continental United States?

Commissioner CARUSI. That is something for someone else to deal with; whether you want to keep them in continental United States or colonize them, that is a question for somebody else to consider.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. That is really a problem, and I think that it may be also advisable for this committee, after it makes its study, to pass such resolution to submit to the peace table for the purpose of clarifying that question, if we could do nothing by way of law.

Now, Mr. Gossett, I think you wished to ask a question.

Mr. GOSSETT. Yes, Mr. Chairman. The problem I want to make inquiry about is the refugee problem. Under H. R. 52 it seems to me

that this committee might very well determine how many refugees we have in this country. I am always getting letters or having someone approach me who feels that we have lots of folks of whom we have no record; that is, people who came over the borders. I know that the Mexicans get in down on the Rio Grande and we must have a lot of them in who are not cataloged, and that is something that I think we want to know about.

Commissioner CARUSI. Yes, sir.

Mr. GOSSETT. In other words, we ought to have the figures on the number who are in illegally. The fact is, I want to be able to answer somebody who writes me about refugees. I should be able to tell him approximately how many are here, how they got here, and if they came here in violation of the immigration laws, and what we will do about it. Commissioner CARUSI. We are always ready to give you those statistics on it. Generally we can get them, but if you want them in a hurry, pretty good tables, in fact, rather complete tables on those precise points were submitted to the House Subcommittee on Appropriations during the hearings on our appropriation. They asked us those very questions and we prepared tables which we submitted to them. They are now in the record and I can get you a copy if you wish. I can say this generally:

In the first place, when you ask me how many refugees there are in this country, I find it difficult to determine who is a refugee.

Mr. GOSSETT. How many noncitizens are there who are not here under permanent residence?

Commissioner CARUSI. Well, the figure, roughly, is about 140,000. Chairman DICKSTEIN. It is not much for this country.

Commissioner CARUSI. That includes Government officials, persons who came here as visitors under the regular immigration laws, or who came as students or who entered the country for a temporary stay, which the law permits. It is quite a small figure and when I say cannot tell you how many refugees there are, that is because we do not know precisely.

For example, John X comes from some country, we will say from Czechoslovakia. He may come here under the quota as an immigrant. Just as many others have come in other days, but because he comes at this particular time when his country is overrun, people call him a refugee; but he came here just as legally and by the same processes as someone else came from Ireland, say, 10 years ago.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. Do you know how many people we have within the territorial limits of the United States who are here illegally, who are here on a visitor's permit, or otherwise?

Commissioner CARUSI. If they come under quota or temporary permit, they are here legally. If they are here illegally, it is our duty to find them and send them back.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. What means of detection do we have? How do we know or find out that they have illegally entered?

Commissioner CARUSI. Only in the usual police way. We have part of the border patrol who try to catch them when they try to come in here over the northern and southern borders of the United States. We have, of course, the immigration inspectors who watch the seaports and screen people as they come through there; and then we have constant surveillance and methods by which we are picking up people who notwithstanding our border watchers, have gotten into the interior of the country, such as deserting seamen and persons who just

smuggle their way in. It is just a case of running across them where we have a suspicion or where we are given a tip. Sometimes we may casually come upon such a person. It is just like catching anybody else who is a fugutive. There are many ways of doing it. The number is not very large.

The only number I can give you, and it is an outside figure and is not a true figure-it may be deceiving-but it is this:

Under the Alien Registration Act we have, of course, sought to register every alien in the country, and in going through those registration cards we found that of the approximately 31⁄2 million aliens in this country, between four and five hundred thousand show by their alien registration card some doubt as to the manner of their entry in this country. I do not mean that they are here illegally, but it is not clear that they are here legally-let us put it that way and we are sending investigators all over the United States from the various field offices to check on every single one of those cards.

We find in many instances the man is dead or has removed from the country or has legalized his entry and become a citizen. There are some who cannot prove legal entry and then it is up to us to make arrangements for the removal from the country of those who are ineligible for status as citizens. So, roughly, I would say that the outside figure of the people who are not here legally would not go beyond that 400,000.

Now, there must be, of course, in the large cities or in the remote mountains or hills men who have smuggled their way in that we haven't caught up with, just as there are all kinds of fugitives over the country, but let us hope they are a small number.

This year we are sending back to Mexico on an average about 80,000 men who have run across the border.

Mr. HEDRICK. Are they Mexicans?

Commissioner CARUSI. They are Mexicans that have come up here for work. They know they are going to be caught and sent back, but to them every day that they can stay means so much profit. They live in hope of returning another day, so when I say 80,000 it may be that we are sending the same fellow back a number of times and it does not mean that we are sending back 80,000 Mexicans. In addition there are a large number of Mexicans, I would say an additional 80,000 or thereabouts, who have been brought in by an arrangement between this Government and that of Mexico and when I say this Government I mean the War Manpower Commission as well as the State Department and the Department of Justice, who put those men on farms as agricultural workers or on the railroads as track workers. They come up under bond and under special recruitment of the Mexican Government to do this work and at the conclusion of the work or at the conclusion of the war, or at some appropriate time thereafter to allow for demobilization of this work then they are to return to Mexico.

Of course, the Mexcian authorities are as eager as we that the Mexicans that come up here illegally shall be promptly returned, and they have said that they would break off this agreement if we were not careful about taking care of the men who were smuggled in to see that they were returned. They do that because they have a manpower problem too, and if we take their men legally and allow