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labor to come in illegally, why soon they will face a serious manpower problem. So we must do everything we can to keep the Mexicans from running across the border. We are working hard at it but it is a big border.

Chaiiman DICKSTEIN. There is 6,000 miles of border.

Commissioner Caruși. Yes. and we have about one man per hundred miles to handle that border. Then, too, we have got to bear in mind also that the manpower situation in this part of the country is acute and there are a number of employers who are happy to get these men and keep them as long as they can until the law catches up with them, and they encourage that sort of activity.

Mr. GOSSETT. I want to ask you one more question, Commissioner, and then I think I am through.

There are a number of people who feel that when the war is over we will be flooded with refugees. Now, do we have existing law and facilities to prevent that sort of thing, of the people coming to America?

Commissioner CARUSI. Well, the quota, of course, will take care of those who will want to come to America and remain.

Mr. GOSSETT. That is right, but I am talking about those who slip in.

Commissioner CARUSI. Yes, there are laws enough to prevent that. The question will be one of manpower, whether we have enough men to meet them and stop them. That is administrative.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. And the only way to keep them from coming in is to have enough men on the border to stop them.

Commissioner CARUSI. That is right. The law prohibits it and it is a matter of policing.

Mr. GOSSETT. Then it is a matter of having an adequate force to see that they do not make illegal entry.

Commissioner Carusi. Of course, as you know, there are not as many men as there are miles of the border; and, obviously, where they are not watching, a man can slip in. What we try to do is not police the entire border, which we cannot do, as that is impossible, but what we try to do is watch the road junctions near the border and the main highways and entrances to the cities to which some day these men who enter the border at scattered points will naturally direct themselves to get to work; because, after all, they do not cross the border for pleasure, but to get work, and so they head for cities and places where there is work. They move out over the highways to the cities, towns, or plantations, and so we watch the main highways and junctions and we stop people and question them; and, in addition, when we find that there is a large influx of workers in a particular locality, we go around to see where they came from and who they are. We do it that way.

Mr. ALLEN. Mr. Commissioner, I want to ask a question along that same line. A few months ago there were newspaper articles to the effect that refugee camps were being established, one or moreI do not know how many--along the coast to take care of refugees from Europe and perhaps other places. I think that was done perhaps by Executive order; I am not certain. I wonder if the people who came to those camps or were brought there, or who got there, if they came in under the quota or did they just come in? Were they just brought in?

Commissioner CARUSI. I am not aware of that. In fact I have not read the newspaper article that there will be refugee camps established on the coast as you suggest. I did know of one which we may call that, at Oswego, N. Y.

Mr. ALLEN. That is not a refugee camp.
Commissioner CARUSI. We could call it that.
Mr. ALLEN. What is it?

Commissioner CARUSI. It is this: There were a group of persons in Italy who had come from Balkan and central European countries and they constituted a military problem in Italy, and the President by an appropriate order had them brought over here under military guidance so that they would be out of the way, so to speak, of the military authorities in Italy. They had created a problem in the theater of operations and they were brought over here not under quota; they were brought here outside the immigration laws completely as though they were still on Ellis Island or out in the bay waiting to come in. The President then announced, and I think has repeated it since, that his purpose was only to bring them all here as a temporary measure and to provide for their return when the war exigencies permitted.

Mr. ALLEN. Well, how many have been brought under that or a similar agreement?

Commissioner CARUSI. That is the only special arrangement and I think that group comprises 983 persons.

Mr. ALLEN. They are going to be carried back at the proper time?

Commissioner CARUSI. I expect so. I know they did not come in under immigration laws; they are not under our authority, but that is my understanding.

Chairman DicKSTEIN. Along those lines, Mr. Allen, may I call your attention, for information only

Mr. ALLEN (interposing). We get these things in the press and people see them and write me.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. I can give you some enlightenment. That is the only free port. That is like a storage warehouse where goods are kept in transit. They are kept there until they are ready to move them back again. They do not have to come under any quotas.

am giving not only the committee but the Commissioner the benefit of some information which I indirectly received. Of the 983, number of them died. There are several hundred children in that so-called free port. Some have had children born in this country who are citizens and they are confined in this free port area, which means that they simply stay there until after the war.

There are no other camps established anywhere in the United States such as the one at Oswego. That is the only one.

Commissioner CARUSI. That is right.

Mr. ALLEN. There is a grave concern on the part of many people along that line, and it is that if a number of these people that are brought in out of the quota, beyond the quota, stay here a while, there will be agitation-in fact, I think I have seen some of it already--to let them stay.

Now, then, furthermore, they are going to have children here, and I assume that under our law those children born here would be American citizens. Mr. Commissioner, is that right?

Commissioner CARUSI. It is so understood.


Mr. ALLEN. Now, we will meet the cry later on that here is a child born in America, an American citizen. Now, then, if you deport the father and mother, why you force this American citizen to go back.

The point that I think the people are interested in largely is that we do not want that thing to become permanent. In other words we do not want any of these people, no matter who they are, to come over here and say: "Now we are here, don't run us back," and things like that.

Commissioner CARUSI. As the chairman has said, that is the only one camp that I know of. I know of no others like that in contemplation and the President has said, as the chairman has stated, that they would be returned.

In that connection I should make this other observation, and that is that Mr. Travers of the State Department is in Europe now participating in the study of that very question, trying to find out from the European end just how much of an urge there is for the people to come here under the conditions that the Congressman has suggested.

Mr. Dolliver. May I interpose an interrogatory at this point? Chairman DICKSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. DOLLIVER. What was the legal authority under which this free port was established?

Commissiner CARUSI. My understanding is that the President did it under the war powers, as a miliatry measure.

Mr. LESINSKI. If any of those people were to stay here, they would naturally be charged to the quota of their respective countries that they came from.

Commsssioner Carusi. Yes; they would have to go through the procedure that anybody would to try to get into this country. They might have to leave and come back, possibly to and from Canada.

Mr. ALLEN. But, Mr. Commissioner, if we go over there and pick out those to come and later on charge those to the quota, it simply amounts to somebody in Washington picking out the immigrants that are to be recognized, I should say, in the United States probably for years to come. I just do not know how that would work out.

Commissioner CARUSI. Of course, we are dealing now with an hypothesis, because I do not think any such plan is intended. Of course, you must know these people before they came over here, as I understand it, indicated a willingness to participate in this program. They were not just picked up and carried but they were selected partially on the basis of their willingness.

Mr. ÅLLEN. In other words they would not be in a position of saying: “You brought us over and we had no say and you should not carry us back.

Commissioner Carusi. That is my understanding.

Mr. ALLEN. Something was said here today about the naturalization courts. It was brought out that we had some 2,000 courts of record passing on naturalization cases and there was some question as to whether it was wise to continue that, or whether we should limit naturalization to the Federal courts. Do you care to express yourself on that?

Commissioner CARUSI. Yes. I think we should go very slowly about taking away from State courts jurisdiction in naturalization cases, for this reason; that the Federal courts do not reach all parts of the country sufficiently and the State courts do, and the State courts are in session constantly. As you know, in some localities the Federal court comes once a year, if it comes at all as a Federal court, so to that extent it is a convenience to the public and it is a convenience to us, because we can keep our work going and do not have to let it pile up; and the opposite view would be that if we limited it to the Federal courts, there would probably be more uniformity, let us say, of the procedure and of the judgments in the different naturalization cases. It is my own personal conclusion that I am not too much impressed with the suggestion that uniformity would come from limiting the cases to Federal courts. The Department of State could not dictate to the Federal judges; and, after all, the judges are human beings and have their own way of doing business, so I do not see that limiting it to the Federal courts would serve any particular useful purpose.

Others may disagree with me; but I say giving it to the State courts makes it a whole lot easier for us and easier for the public.

Mr. ALLEN. Well, are all State courts authorized to hear and act on petitions for citizenship?

Commissioner CARUSI. The law provides for that.

Chairman DicKSTEIN. The sovereign power with the approval of Congress has authorized that right. What we can do, however, even in Federal courts in regard to the uniformity of naturalization, ought to be readjusted by this committee upon a study. I hope to appoint a subcommittee to consider that subject and take it up with various associations and the circuit court judges and the district court judges and have all of them discuss that question. Then we can also recommend to the States uniformity of practice based on the procedure of the Federal courts, and I have every reason to believe that they would be glad to follow it; but you cannot take away the right of your State or my State. The supreme court of that State has that sovereign power.

Mr. SHAUGHNESSY. The Commissioner has the law.
Mr. ALLEN. I would like to have it in the record.
Chairman DICKSTEIN. The subcommittee would have to go into it.

Commissioner CARUSI. For the record, it will be found in section 701 of title 8 of the United States Code.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. We will put that in the record. Without objection that portion of it will be inserted in the record.

Mr. REES. It is only one paragraph. The Commissioner can read it in the record.

Commissioner CARUSI (reading):

Exclusive jurisdiction to naturalize persons as citizens of the United States is hereby conferred upon the following specified courts: District courts of the United States now existing or which may hereafter be established by Congress in any State; district courts of the United States of the Territories of Hawaii and Alaska and the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico and the District Court of the Virgin Islands of the United States; also all courts of record in any State or Territory now existing or which may hereafter be created having a seal, a clerk, and jurisdiction in actions of law or equity or law and equity in which the amount in controversy is unlimited. The jurisdiction of all the courts herein specified to naturalize persons shall extend to only such persons resident within the respective jurisdiction of such courts, excepting as otherwise specifically provided in this act.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. You have read enough.
Commissioner CARUSI. That is the end of the paragraph.

Mr. FISHER. On that same point, Commissioner, in the State of Texas naturalization processes are carried on in the Federal courts,

you know.

Commissioner CARUSI. Yes.

Mr. FISHER. Or at least I haven't known of examples of naturalization being had in the State courts in the State of Texas.

Commissioner Carusi. I just do not know what the situation is in Texas.

Mr. DOLLIVER. The same thing is true in Iowa.

Commissioner CARUSI. It may be the choice of the State courts, or it may be a matter of habit.

Mr. FISHER. It occurs to me, not having given any study to the problem, that it would be better to have a Federal court pass on such

a a case rather than a State judge who is elected by the people and who would have some reasons in the counties to know the individual whose rights were being adjudicated.

Commissioner Carusi. I am not disagreeing with you, Mr. Congressman, but I would prefer not to pass any judgment on the fact that a judge would be influenced by such a thing. That is a chance we take with all persons in public office; they are either honest or otherwise.

Mr. FISHER. You would not take that chance in the Federal court, would you?

Commissioner CARUSI. A Federal judge is appointed, it is true; but somebody must have been his friend or else he might not have been appointed. I would not change the system on any such basis.

Mr. FISHER. Of course, that is my opinion.

Commissioner Carusi. But, on the other hand, some State judges are appointed, too, or are elected by the legislature.

Mr. Fisher. It occurred to me that it would be unfair in a way. In the State court the judge would be forced to pass upon the issues in regard to a man and his friends and the man might be known to him.

Commissioner CARUSI. But by that same token he ought not to pass on any litigation because the people who litigate before him may have voted for him and might be his friends. But you must remember that the person coming up to be naturalized has not voted for or against him because he is not a citizen.

Mr. FISHER. Getting back to the quota proposition: Prior to the outbreak of the war, Mr. Commissioner, did most of the countries take up their quota of immigration?

Commissioner CARUSI. Well for a time, up until about 1930 or so, they did; and then in 1930, as I am informed, President Hoover sent out instructions or had instructions sent to the consular representatives of this country abroad to scrutinize very carefully applications for visas. The result of that was a marked trend downward. The quotas since that have not been used; some of them have been used in small part and, of course, under present conditions they are not being used.

Mr. Fisher. Do you anticipate that because of the very bad conditions that exist in Europe as the result of destruction brought on bv the war, that after the war there will be a greater demand for a greater exodus of immigrants to this country from the European countries?

78130_45-pt. 1


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