The idea that the State is a huge explosive plant is quite unfounded, for although the State is the headquarters of the three largest explosive manufacturers in America, there are no explosive plants in Delaware.

However, Delaware is at the crossroads of the heavy north and south movement along the Atlantic seaboard. U. S. No. 40 carries through traffic between Washington, Baltimore, New Jersey, and New York. It meets U. S. No. 13, the coastal highway, which connects with other routes coming up from the Carolinas and the South, via Norfolk, and passes through our State to Philadelphia, where it joins other routes leading to New York and the northern industrial areas.

Both of these routes carry a heavy truck traffic, which at their junction, averages over 3,200 trucks per day throughout the year. Trucks constitute 22 percent of the total traffic.

Foreign traffic on U. S. No. 40 at this point is 81 percent of the total. Other through routes in Delaware are interstate in character, from 40 percent to 71 percent of the cars using them being of foreign registration. From this it may be deduced that the number of registered motor vehicles in a State may not be a true measure of road use or road needs. There are several locations in Delaware where the traffic count for a 2-day holiday period approximates the total car registration of the State.

There are no county or township roads in the State. All highways outside of incorporated towns and cities are under the supervision of the State highway department.

We have a well-developed State highway system, which with certain exceptions handles existing traffic reasonably well. Twenty-two percent of the entire State road mileage is on the Federal-aid system. In fact, 26 States have less mileage of 4-lane highways, and 38 States have less mileage of 6-lane highways. For several years Delaware. had a larger mileage of dual or divided highways than many of the larger States, for practically all of Delaware's multiple lane highways are of the divided type.

I have made these statements to bring out the wide difference of conditions which prevail in the various States, regardless of their size or population. These are determined by their location, and consequent difference in climate, soil, traffic volume, and stage of highway development, which make any rigid allocation of funds for definite classes of projects, such as primary, secondary, urban, and interregional, impractical and undesirable.

Delaware has but one urban zone. It's secondary road problems are well in hand and need little Federal extension. The interregional system would hardly touch Delaware-perhaps only through courtesy-and would solve few of its traffic problems.

I understand many miles of the interregional system at present do not carry in excess of 1,000 vehicles daily. Delaware's main north and south highway, the Coleman DuPont Boulevard, a part of U. S. No. 13, extends from Cape Charles, Va., to Philadelphia, and carries in excess of 6,000 vehicles per day south of its junction with U. S. No. 40. Yet it is not in the system and could not share in these funds.

It is the thought of the Delaware State Highway Department that whatever formula is used, and in whatever manner the funds are allotted, a provision should be incorporated in the bill to allow the

greatest flexibility in the use of the funds within the State, as no fixed percentage can meet the needs of individual States.

The Department would also point out that, in order to plan intelligently a post-war program and secure the legislation which in many of the States is necessary to carry it forward, the early passage of legislation by the Congress is of first importance.

There is attached a condensed summary of Delaware's highway needs which was prepared in 1940 as a future works program. The hard usage of the past 4 years has made the carrying out of this work even more imperative.

DELAWARE HIGHWAY NEEDS

First: Many miles of Delaware's main highways are 20-25 years old; reconstruction of these has now been delayed 3 years. Restoring them to their pre-war condition is a primary necessity. Total mileage, 190; estimated cost, $5,100,000.

Second: Widening and improving 88 miles of narrow and obsolescent highways. Construction also delayed by the war. Estimated

cost, $1,880,000.

Third. Extension of dual-highway system U. S. No. 13, and U. S. No. 113, and elimination of bottle necks and grade crossings. Estimated cost, $9,270,000.

Fourth. Urban improvements and extensions in and about Wilmington. Estimated cost, $1,962,000.

Total estimated cost, $18,212,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Just a question or two.

Mr. MACK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any prepared amendment to the bill before us which you think would fit the problem of your State? Have you any suggested amendment?

Mr. MACK. No, sir; the only thing I would suggest is that an amendment be prepared. And I understand one is being prepared, to the effect that, through some proper procedure, funds can be transferred from one category to another.

The CHAIRMAN. Your idea is that the bill's provisions are too rigid and would not permit you to use the secondary road funds?

Mr. MACK. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. So that some amendment should be adopted that would make those funds available for other purposes where they cannot be used on secondary roads?

Mr. MACK. Then, too, the money set up for towns under 10,000 in population would probably be beyond what we could use for that purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we see your problem, and we appreciate your statement.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. From your study of this bill are you clear that the term "construction" here would cover the main thoroughfares in your State? I think we want to be sure that whatever funds we make available here shall be subject to the use of the highway commissions of the several States to recondition their main thoroughfares. You have, of course, excellent highways in Delaware, but you have some that, following the war, are going to be reconditioned and reconstructed, as I see it. I am right about that?

Mr. MACK. A great many of our main highways will need reconstruction.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. And you think this money ought to be available for construction or reconstruction?

Mr. MACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Including bridges?

Mr. MACK. Yes, sir; we consider it reconstruction, where we maintain the old road base, and probably widen or resurface it. If we take it out and build a new road entirely that, of course, would be construction.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. If you built the road all along. But where you have got to straighten a road or get the kinks out of a road you have already it may be in the nature of reconstruction in a good many places. Mr. MACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. You use generally the same highway, the same numbered road.

Mr. MACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. And you think this legislation is going to be broad enough to take care of that?

Mr. MACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. I agree with you.

The CHAIRMAN. I take it, Mr. Mack, you are of the opinion that in line 5 of the bill, "the term 'construction' means the supervising, inspecting, actual building

Mr. MACK. And reconstruction.

The CHAIRMAN. It means that, and, incidentally, means the construction or reconstruction of highways and bridges?

Mr. MACK. That is right; both would be included.

The CHAIRMAN. And I think your idea is that we should make that wording more specific or clarify it.

Mr. MACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. I wanted to ask Mr. Mack how that affected his State, because he is in the northeast here, and I know about the conditions following the severe storm some few years ago, all the way through Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Delaware. Thank you, Mr.

Mack.

The CHAIRMAN. All right; thank you very much. The next witness is Mr. M. J. Steere, from Montana.

STATEMENT OF M. J. STEERE, DEPARTMENT PLANNING ENGINEER, MONTANA STATE HIGHWAY

The CHAIRMAN. Will you state your name and title for the record? Mr. STEERE. M. J. Steere, highway engineer, Montana.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Does that mean highway commission?

Mr. STEERE. Yes, sir. I am a planning engineer.

The CHAIRMAN. Is your highway commission elected?

Mr. STEERE. It is appointed.

The CHAIRMAN. By the Governor?

Mr. STEERE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you one of the commission?

Mr. STEERE. I am not one of the commission. I am representing

them.

The CHAIRMAN. You are chosen by the commission?

Mr. STEERE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. As a planning engineer for the State highways?
Mr. STEERE. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. And your planning is highway planning?
Mr. STEERE. Entirely.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. I wanted to be clear, because ordinarily these planners who come in here want us to spend money, but have no suggestions as to how we are going to raise it. I am always in doubt about that word "planning.

Mr. STEERE. It covers a multitude of sins.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. That is the trouble, and I didn't want you to get into that category.

Mr. STEERE. In presenting this brief on Montana's highway needs, I would like to emphasize the fact that Montana is one of the States of the Union which is entirely dependent upon Federal aid. As a matter of fact, we could not build, nor could we maintain our primary system, or our secondary system, without Federal aid. It would cost us $790 for every man, woman, and child just to build the primary and the secondary system and no other roads in the State, and that would only cover 12,000 miles of road. When you take Federal aid, the cost would be cut down to $371 for every man, woman, and child. So you see we are dependent on some Federal aid in order even to improve the principal roads of the State.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. May I interrupt there?

Mr. STEERE. Yes, sir.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If this formula were changed and population. only was being considered, you wouldn't get anywhere; would you? Mr. STEERE. No, sir; we wouldn't have anything to stand on." As a matter of fact, the amount of money this bill has set up for Montana is about the limit we can handle anyhow. We feel satisfied we can match, under the present standard, all of the money that would be appropriated to Montana, but if it went over that amount, we could not use the money. That is the main point I want to bring out.

The CHAIRMAN. On the matching, suppose a provision were inserted whereby you could match the money used on your main Federal-aid highways in Montana, on the basis of 75-25, but on your secondary roads, which are not used so much by the public and which are more local in nature, the matching would be on a different basis?

Mr. STEERE. As I understand this bill, it carries 75-25 on all roads. The CHAIRMAN. It does now, but I am wondering, if such a provision as I indicated were put in the bill, how it would affect Montana. Mr. STEERE. Any reduction in Federal aid like that would affect us materially. We would just have to cut off a few more miles of road; that is all. You see, under the Federal law we are allowed 6,570 miles of Federal-aid secondary roads. We have 5,600 miles of primary, giving us, roughly, 12,000 miles of road. We have a total of 65,730 miles of highway in the State.

The CHAIRMAN. But you see, it can be argued that the secondary roads are used primarily only by the citizens within the State. Mr. STEERE. That is true enough.

The CHAIRMAN. And, therefore, the Federal Government, representing the people from other States who do not use these roads should

not pay as high a rate, or the same high proportion, for the building of those roads, as it would on the regular Federal highways, through roads, used by the public of the Nation as a whole.

Mr. STEFRE. When you talk about the Federal Government using these roads, 85 percent of these secondary roads we have indicated in our report are used by the Postal Service now.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a point I am glad to have brought out.

Mr. STEERE. Yes, sir. And 85 percent of that mileage is now included in the Postal Service. So the Federal Government is actually using those roads. And 90 percent of those roads are on school-bus

routes.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. How many miles of paved first-class roads are there in your State?

Mr. STEERE. By paving you mean concrete paving?

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Yes; or its equivalent.

Mr. STEERE. About 24.

Mr. WHITTINGON. Twenty-four miles?

Mr. STEERE. Yes, sir. We cannot afford to build concrete paved roads in the State. The best we can do is about a 3-inch bituminous road mix.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. What is the average cost of that 3-inch road? Mr. STEERE. Grading and all, about $30,000 a mile.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. The average cost of that road in your State from one end to the other is $30,000 a mile?

Mr. STEERE. For the best grade; it runs from twenty to thirty thousand in the State.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. What is the cost of a concrete road in your State? Mr. STEERE. We haven't built any for nearly 15 years.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. You haven't built any for nearly 15 years?

Mr. STEERE. No, sir. We don't build any at the present time at all. We are not even planning on them.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. What are the main national highways that go through your state? How many are there?

Mr. STEERE. East and west, 2-U S 2 and US 10.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Where do they go, Portland, Seattle, or where is their final destination?

Mr. STEERE. Seattle, one to Portland.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. One in the northern part of the State and the other in the southern?

Mr. STEERE. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. Which one goes to Yellowstone Park?

Mr. STEERE. U. S. 10.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. What sort of a road is that?

Mr. STEERE. It is an oil road. It is in the interregional system, and at the present time it needs rebuilding very badly. It is one of the first roads built in the State, and the traffic in the last 2 years has broken down the oil very much. It is very badly in need of rebuilding. Mr. WHITTINGTON. And your forest roads; are there any concrete paved roads through any of your forests or United States reservations?

Mr. STEERE. No, sir. We have just those two stretches of roads, one between Butte and Anaconda, and part of it down to Billings.

Mr. WHITTINGTON. How many of your main thoroughfares are what we might call forest roads, or access roads?