Mr. JACK. It wasn't only the Reagan administration. There are many other Western countries very concerned about Poland.

Mr. HYDE. I suggest that is the first time the United Nations Human Rights Commission has publicly condemned human rights violations in the Eastern bloc nations, and I would love to know otherwise so I can join you.

Dr. Shelton may have an answer.

Mr. JACK. You have mentioned Afghanistan, and I can mention Kampuchea. For 4 or 5 years the Commission on Human Rights and the Sub-Commission have opposed Vietnamese aggression in Kampuchea.

Mr. HYDE. Don't you have a tug of war there between the People's Republic of China and the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics both taking sides in there?

Mr. JACK. Yes, but the fact is that the Commission has been very clear against what is happening in Kampuchea today, the violations of many human rights. I regret that the Commission was so slow in condemning Pol Pot before 1978. In fact, some of us gave testimony on this. Australia and the United Kingdom tried very hard to get condemnation of Pol Pot in the U.N. system. Every year since, including a few days ago in Geneva, the Commission very strongly condemned what Vietnam is doing with its 200,000 troops in Kampuchea.

Mr. Zorin is there, a formidable foe, sitting in the Soviet seat at the U.N. Commission on Human Rights in Geneva. Sometimes I regret to say, he is more clever than some of our representatives. But surely in terms of this U.N. Declaration, again, Michael Novak, Allard Lowenstein, and many other American diplomats, made important contributions. The Russians aren't 10-feet tall in the U.N. and you can work around them and against them, and I think several administrations have done that. There has not been complete success. Yet if the Russians had their druthers, there wouldn't be a U.N. declaration against Religious Discrimination.

A diplomat from Ireland, the chairman of the Third Committee, a diplomat from Netherlands, and a woman diplomat from Morocco maneuvered a compromise so that both the fundamentalist Muslims and the Soviets unanimously agreed.There was some division, believe it or not, in the Eastern European bloc, and the Westerners perceived that division and were able to get a unanimous compromise.

Mr. HYDE. One last question. You make a statement that the majority of U.N. members are against the "false, intemperate accusations" about the U.N. from Ms. Kirkpatrick. What false accusations has she made?

Mr. JACK. She called it a cesspool. She said there was some antiSemitism against Jewish members of the U.S. Mission. I believe she had to back down on that. She said that, I believe, on the CBS show, "60 Minutes." She has been making almost a statement a day against the United Nations, and it really doesn't stand up. I haven't them before me, but really this is not helpful.

I must say and I am not any great Democrat, but an Independent-that in the days of Ambassador Andrew Young there was real affection for the United Nations and he had a sensitivity at the

United Nations that I regret to say that Ms. Kirkpatrick does not have.

Mr. HYDE. Well, that's understandable. Andy Young related to the Third World better than Ms. Kirkpatrick. He met with the PLO, and unfortunately President Carter saw fit to get rid of him. I regretted that. I don't know why Carter did that.

Mr. BONKER. Professor Shelton wanted to respond.

MS. SHELTON. A point of information and a comment. The first human rights case taken up in the United Nations, even before South Africa, was the question of Soviet wives married to foreign nationals. That was the very first session of the General Assembly. Mr. HYDE. What was that about?

Ms. SHELTON. It concerned the refusal of the Soviet Union to allow the Russian wives of foreign nationals to leave the Soviet Union and to join their families abroad.

Mr. HYDE. What happened?

Ms. SHELTON. It focused public attention on the case. However, I do not know the emigration statistics following that discussion. Mr. HYDE. You don't know whether any results resulted?

MS. SHELTON. No. You asked whether they did take up the case. But they did condemn the Soviet Union for that activity. Mr. HYDE. That was when?

MS. SHELTON. In 1947.

Mr. HYDE. After that?

Ms. SHELTON. Well, I think Mr. Jack has mentioned the cases concerning Kampuchea.

Mr. HYDE. That is 1980-something. So from 1947——

Ms. SHELTON. I think it has been common knowledge in United Nations that human rights cases may not be won in the current system against either the Soviet Union or the United States. In addition to having a number of cases filed against the Soviet Union on their emigration policies and, on their religious persecution, there have been cases filed against the United States, particularly involving the treatment of the American Indians.

Mr. HYDE. Who filed that? Cuba?

MS. SHELTON. The American Indian Movement and the Indian Law Resource Center. The cases have come out of United States groups concerned with the American Indian.

Mr. BONKER. We are going to have hearings on the United Nations.

Mr. HYDE. A substantial part of Dr. Jack's testimony involved the United Nations. I hope I didn't violate protocol by interrogating him about his statement.

Ms. SHELTON. I would like to respond to one other point you raised, and that is whether or Israel has discriminated against any religions. With regard to marriage, divorce, inheritance and registration of children, the law does refer to the religious law of various recognized religious groups. In other words, to get a divorce you have to go to a recognized religion.

Those who do not belong to the Orthodox Jewish religion have to find another religion in which to register themselves in order to get a divorce to comply with the law.

Mr. HYDE. Secular humanists would have a difficult time.

MS. SHELTON. It is very difficult. It compels adherence to a religious belief that may not be the religion of the individual involved. Mr. HYDE. Would you call it a restriction on religious freedom? Ms. SHELTON. I think it is for a Reformed Jew, because it compels them to follow the practices of the Orthodox Jewish religion which they do not believe.

Mr. HYDE. Thank you.

Mr. BONKER. Religious freedom can mean almost anything, and when one considers the broad range of religious beliefs and discrimination, it is difficult to address this in an evenhanded way.

I would like to read a brief description of human rights violations that currently exists in section 116 of the foreign assistance legislation.

"No assistance may be provided ** to the government of any country which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights, including"-now here is how we describe human rights violations-"torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment, prolonged detention without charges, causing the disappearance of persons by the abduction and clandestine detention of those persons or other flagrant denial of the right of life, liberty and the security of per

sons.

* * *"'

This was an attempt to add a human rights provision to the Foreign Assistance Act. It is by no means perfect. We have added the section on the disappeared person as a result of this subcommittee's hearings on the subject. Eventually that was incorporated into the description of what constitutes a human rights violation.

If we were to add religious persecution in that description, what countries could you cite today that would be potentially in violation of that clause? We all know in Iran the Baha'is would qualify. Would you really characterize the Copts in Egypt as being persecuted?

Dr. Jack, in your studies of Asian countries, you have mentioned the Philippines and South Korea. Would you really characterize the problems there as religious persecution?

Mr. JACK. Well, it is a very fine line and it is very subtle. One can think of the Ahmadiyyas in Pakistan. I think rather analogous is the Baha'is in Iran, maybe in another era. They haven't really been decimated, but at various times in recent history I guess some of their mosques have been burned down, their people have been denied employment, and yet in some ways some of the Ahmadiyyas are the super intellectuals in Pakistan.

The one Nobel laureate from Pakistan is an Ahmadiyya.

How this would fit in with the U.S. law, I don't know. It is at least a subtle distinction. Only when there is a beginning of killings, as in Iran, with the Baha'is, does it become that blatant to make one wonder whether it fits within the law.

Mr. HYDE. Would the chairman yield?

Mr. BONKER. Yes.

Mr. HYDE. I think we are on a very serious and difficult voyage when we talk about religious persecution unless we can distinguish those religious manifestations which have a secular, or governmental overlay.

For example, the Moslem fundamentalists in Iran, one of the fears I am told in Pakistan and in Afghanistan is that there is a group of Moslem fundamentalists who if they-if the Soviets are thrown out they will impose on Afghanistan as difficult and unfree a society as Iran has. So the cause of freedom no matter who the oppressors are, is still the loser.

There are other Moslems. Sadat was certainly one and there are many others who are not adherants of this fundamentalist theocracy type of operation.

It is awfully hard when you say Moslems are persecuted to understand whether these are political as distinguished from purely religious persecutions or an attempt by a State to defend itself from Moslem fundamentalists.

I think Congress has to learn an awful lot more about the distinctions and who is who, and the Sunnis, and the Shiites, and the fundamentalists and nonfundamentalists.

Mr. BONKER. That is why we are conducting these hearings, Mr. Hyde. We need a body of testimony. I don't think it is a subject Congress can ignore. Look at what happened in Nazi Germany and the decimation of 6 million people which can be distinctly characterized as a form of religious persecution. Sometimes the source is subtle. I think you made reference in your statement to even Sunday School textbooks referring to Christ killers.

Mr. HYDE. I have been educated in religious schools all my life and I have seen a jillion textbooks, and I have yet to see that phrase. I would like to have a current list of textbooks that refer to the Jews as Christ killers.

Mr. JACK. I think the Anti-Defamation League can furnish you that list. I have not seen it recently.

Mr. HYDE. I have never encountered one.

Mr. JACK. I would say, Mr. Chairman, about the Muslims it might be very productive for your subcommittee to take a look at Islam. Just that. It is a very interesting phenomenon today around the world. There are some experts and it would be a very interesting microcosm if you plunged deeply into a hearing.

Mr. HYDE. Could you and Dr. Shelton suggest a book to us, we would like to have a book on Islam that hasn't got an axe to grind. I think it would be most useful.

Ms. SHELTON. With regard to identifying situations that might be covered by a law identifying religious persecution as a human rights violation, we have several cases that existing international organizations have identified. The situation of Jehovah's Witnesses in Cuba has been pointed out by the Inter-American Commission as being a case in which they have been subject to persecution.

The Catholic Church, in particular, and other religions in Guatemala, have been subject to persecution. In addition, there is the situation in Iran, and the situation in Poland to which Congressman Porter referred.

As to the situation of the Coptics in Egypt, I would characterize their treatment under Sadat as persecution. I do not know what has happened since then. More information should be obtained on their current status.

Mr. BONKER. As a lawyer, how would you define "religious persecution"?

MS. SHELTON. Well, if I can use the analogy of the relationship of cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment to torture, I would say you can take the same approach toward religious discrimination and religious persecution. That is, a religious persecution is an aggravated form of religious discrimination aimed at the ultimate destruction of the group involved.

In international jurisprudence torture has been defined as an aggravated form of cruel and inhuman treatment. I would say the same could be done with regard to persecution as an aggravated form of religious discrimination.

Mr. BONKER. We need to really struggle with the definition because if you were to incorporate religious persecution into section 116, and section 502B, one referring to economic assistance and the other to security assistance we need to have a good idea of the definition.

Ms. SHELTON. It is difficult because, as I say, the term does not exist in any human rights instrument so it would be constructing a new term which would have to have its own definition.

Mr. BONKER. Defining disappearances was another interesting challenge for the Congress. Because if a person has disappeared it is hard to really have the evidence to back up the charge. On the other hand, there is a great deal of evidence when so many people have disappeared as a result of government activity. We have successfully incorporated that into these two sections of the law. I am not sure we are going to be able to do the same with religious persecution.

Mr. HYDE. Mr. Chairman, may I ask unanimous consent that Congressman Derwinski have leave to submit a statement for the record on the Baha'is in Iran?

Mr. BONKER. Without objection that will be ordered. [Mr. Derwinski's prepared statement follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. EDWARD J. DERWINSKI, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS

Mr. Chairman, as a cosponsor of H. Con. Res. 249, the resolution introduced by my colleague, Rep. John Porter, condemning religious persecution by national Governments, I want to join him in urging that special attention be given by the Subcommittee to the plight of the Baha'is in Iran.

Recognition of the persecution by the Government of Iran of people of the Baha'i faith in that country has been neglected for too long by the media. Executions of Baha'i leaders in Iran, confiscation of property, unjust imprisonment based solely on their faith must be called to the attention of the world.

I have raised this issue on the Floor of the House and have called my concern about this tragedy to the attention of the Secretary General of the United Nations. It is ironic that the nations of the world are neglecting this obvious case of massive religious persecution. Entities such as the U.N. are strangely silent.

I hope that the Subcommittee will focus on this particularly blatant case of religious persecution of Baha'is in Iran.

Mr. BONKER. Both of you have given the subcommittee some good examples, and that will give us more specifics to look at as we proceed with these hearings.

You made suggestions that perhaps we ought to look at the Islamic faith in general. Others have suggested that perhaps we ought to have a hearing focusing exclusively on the Baha'is. There has been a lot of concern about the Ethiopian Jews, because apparently they are the victims of repression in that country. There have been