Present position: President, National Education Association.

Teaching positions: Special education teacher (slow-learners, disadvantaged children), Price Junior-Senior High School, Salisbury, N.C. (1945-Present); Winston-Salem, N.C. (1942-1945); Landis, N.C. (1941-1942); Dunn, N.C. (1938-1940); Salisbury, N.C., Livingstone College, Summer Sessions.

Local, State Professional Activities, include: President of the Salisbury Unit of the North Carolina Teachers Association and a member of the executive board and chairman of the Constitution Committee; was president of the NCTA Association of Classroom Teachers for two terms (1959-1963) and is still a member of the executive board; a member of the Board of Directors of the NCTA; and was a member of North Carolina Governor Sanford's Commission on the Status of Women in 1962.

National Professional Activities, include: President, president-elect, vice president, secretary of the NEA Association of Classroom Teachers, 1961-1966; American Association of School Administrators-Association of Classroom Teachers Joint Commission; represented NEA in West Berlin, 1962, and at World Confederation of Organizations of the Teaching Profession Conference in Seoul, Korea, 1964.

Other Professional Organizations; Life member, National Education Association; North Carolina Teachers Association; NEA Council for Exceptional Children; National Association for Retarded Children; North Carolina Association for Retarded Children; Zeta Phi Beta Sorority.

Church Affiliation and Activities: St. Philip's Episcopal Church, Salisbury, N.C.; Clerk, St. Philip's (1950– ); Secretary-Treasurer, St. Philip's Churchwomen (1951-1963); Delegate to Triennial Convention of Episcopal Churchwomen (1955); Chairman, Interracial Committee, N.C. Diocese Episcopal Churchwomen (1954-1959).

Other activities: Member, Education Committee, National Urban League (1965- ); Member, President Johnson's Advisory Council on Education of Disadvantaged Children (1965-1968); Member, Editorial Board of Education USA (1965- ); Member, Editorial Board of Education Digest (1967-1970); N.C. Council on Human Relations; Negro Civic League of Rowan County, N.C.; Member, American Delegation to 4th Dartmouth Conference, Soviet Union (1964); Member, Family Service Council of N.C.

Honorary Degrees and Awards: Doctor of Humane Letters and Distinguished Alumni Award, Livingstone College, Salisbury, N.C., 1966 and 1967; Civitan Distinguished Teacher Award, Civitan Club, Salisbury, N.C., 1968.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions? Senator Prouty?

STATEMENT OF MRS. ELIZABETH DUNCAN KOONTZ, OF NORTH CAROLINA, DIRECTOR OF THE WOMEN'S BUREAU, DEPARTMENT OF LABOR-DESIGNATE

Senator PROUTY. Mr. Chairman, I was able to visit with Mrs. Koontz only briefly as when she called on me I was rushing to the floor of the Senate to vote against a tax increase for myself as a result of the increase in congressional salary, However, I am familiar with her record which has been outstanding.

I know that many of us associated in the education field are very sorry to see her leave her present job and responsibilities. I am sure she will make an even greater contribution with the Department of Labor. I am very happy indeed for her.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Dominick.

Senator DOMINICK. Mr. Chairman, I had the privilege of being with Mrs. Koontz in Salt Lake City, Utah, on a panel in December. I had the great pleasure of meeting her then and listening to her very fine paper that she gave to the assembled group of very distinguished educators. I am happy to support her.

Mrs. Koontz, the biographical sketch does not indicate if you have or are going to or feel it is necessary to resign your presidency of NEA.

Mrs. KOONTZ. I have resigned already, Senator Dominick. I did feel it was necessary not to hold that position in limbo since education is such an important part of what I expect to be doing if confirmed by the Senate.

Senator DOMINICK. Are there other organizations that you feel you should resign from?

Mrs. KOONTZ. I have no feeling that any membership in any of the other organizations would be prohibitive to the work I would be doing.

Senator DOMINICK. Once again, I want to say it will be a pleasure to work with you. This is going to be a big job, as you well know.

One of the problems that we have facing us-and I think this is going to be interesting is trying to figure out what we do about the antidiscrimination laws that we now have on the books. I have supported all of them, as I think all of you know.

I was concerned and made a statement on the floor when we got to the age discrimination bill as to what the employer is supposed to do. Take the situation where he has a woman coming in; you can't discriminate on account of sex; and she is below the age of 40; and he has a man coming in who is over 40 and he is not allowed to discriminate in that area. If he takes the man he is in trouble with the women. If he takes the woman he is in trouble with the man. This could create all kinds of problems.

I have a feeling this will be one of the things that we are going to be dealing with, particularly, I would suspect, as far as many of the funds are concerned which now, people have said, discriminate in favor of the women. They can retire earlier than men can and get a higher percentage of their benefits when they do.

Many of the pension funds are that way and have been deliberately set up that way. I suspect this will be part of the problem. I am sure you know about some of these things.

Do you have any thoughts at this point on how those things can be handled and put together so that we have a program instead of a hodgepodge?

Mrs. KOONTZ. First of all, I am very pleased to appear before this committee in a new capacity and in anticipation of nomination which I hope will be favorable because I regard this as a tremendous challenge.

I think there is probably no question about this whole arena; and the fact that women have been admitted to the world of work is one of the basic problems as it is always very difficult to try to equalize where there has been a gap. Consequently, again in the whole area of manpower, I think it will have to be looked upon in its various aspects of individual arenas. There will be the great problem of training women for the period after they have finished rearing children and I think that perhaps we must take into account then there is no contradiction in the arena of woman's place in the home as a mother or as a housewife. All of the statistics available to us indicate that there are still periods after children are grown. That is one of our problem areas for mature women.

Not only these statistics, but the fact that so many women are the heads of households and hold equal responsibilities as men.

These are some of our problem areas in the whole arena of labor and manpower.

Actually, I would look at the work of the Women's Bureau as being one that should not only point up these peculiar circumstances that surround the female part of manpower but analyze whatever may be the conditions in the world of work to which women can make a contribution, find self-fulfillment, and advance their own employment or their own opportunities for employment.

There is a great deal of unemployment which I think creates the situation to which you, Senator Dominick, have referred. There are women who have chosen careers who are in this kind of vast state of limbo, so to speak, where they seem to be cut off, stymied or at a point of termination in advancement, and yet they do have ambition. They are looking forward, within their own States, their own localities, to opportunities and to seeing the provisions of the law as now established carried out so that they do not have Federal statutes that support the antidiscrimination phase of employment or provide equal opportunity while at the same time finding local laws or State laws militating against their involvement in this capacity.

Senator DOMINICK. I think you have said it very well.

I look forward to continuing to discuss and talk about these problems and trying to work out solutions to them.

Mrs. KOONTZ. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Schweiker.

Senator SCHWEIKER. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bellmon.

Senator BELLMON. Mr. Chairman, I have one question that I would like to ask Mrs. Koontz.

We had a conversation in my office yesterday. I know that Mrs. Koontz is a teacher and I know in her work with the NEA that she has had a great deal to do with teachers and is intimately familiar with the unrest that we have in the teaching profession.

Would you be involved in this line of activity, your division?

Mrs. KOONTZ. The Women's Bureau is not the kind of agency within the Labor Department with any enforcement powers. It is one that uses the influence of various other agencies of the Labor Department and of Government generally.

For instance, there are many mothers who are on welfare who would be gainfully employed if there were any place their children could be kept and also trained, which means that we are talking about child care facilities, which may be possible through other agencies. The Women's Bureau has the responsibility of knowing those agencies through which it can have this kind of influence as well as the manpower agencies.

As far as teachers are concerned, there is no question about them. They are part of the labor force, too, and they have a right to organize in whatever way they select.

Senator BELLMON. This is the reason I raise the question.

Can you tell us your feeling about the teachers strikes and what you would propose in your new position to do about this problem? Mrs. KOONTZ. I think we have fairly good evidence that there are conditions under which the education of the children is at stake and teachers, apparently in the face of many other conditions in terms of local tax structures and local finances are the remaining force to bring to the attention of the public what has not been done for children.

However, this, as with any other kind of work force, is a local decision that must be made by the people who are involved and is not to be imposed on them by any other agency. I feel that inasmuch as education is big business, and it will be, they are a potential labor force that has not been tapped to the extent of full potential yet. Senator BELLMON. In your position, would you have any role in helping to settle a teachers' strike?

Mrs. KOONTZ. I am sure I don't know what the role might be. As the President, or the Secretary, Mr. Shultz, envisions; the Department of Labor or even this committee, as the chairman has suggested to Dr. Weber, I can't anticipate that.

I might say that the enabling act under which the Women's Bureau was established does not suggest any mediation activity but certainly if a knowledge of women's organizations and groups would help in settling any kind of dispute, I should hope that the Bureau would be at the disposal of the Department or any agency for whatever resources it might have to place at their disposal.

Senator BELLMON. Let me ask one other question.

Can you give us your feeling about the teachers' strikes generally? Do you feel that this is the only way to settle these problems? As president of NEA, were you involved in this sort of activity?

Mrs. KOONTZ. Certainly the NEA has as an agency been a supporter of State associations, local associations that have engaged in walkouts, interruptions and strikes as defined by various States.

One of the associations is under State collective bargaining law which recognizes, of course, the strike as a means of settlement or protest. My position on that is that if we are expecting groups to by any means improve their own lot then we must provide for them the means of protest and if education associations as any other labor force have the right to protest, then I think we must make these arrangements.

In some States, it is illegal so therefore I could not support a strike as an illegal measure as far as breaking the law is concerned. But 1 think we do an injustice to groups when we leave them no place, no way to protest, and make illegal those means that are used by many other agencies.

So, I would hope that one of the responsibilities of the Labor Department, universities, and other agencies that are concerned with this same question in the interest of the public welfare would be to find some solutions so that public employees have a peaceful means by which they can come to grips with their grievances.

Senator BELLMON. I have no more questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Randolph.

Senator RANDOLPH. Mrs. Koontz, I find it troublesome to hear you talk as you do about public employees or officials striking. Don't misunderstand me. Differences occur in the thinking of people on these subjects. I have a position on this subject and I arrived at itI hope carefully and constructively. I do not believe in those persons who are employed by public bodies striking, whether they be members of the police force, members of the firefighting force, members of the teaching fraternity, or the many categories that fall within the public

sector.

Now, I am not going to be angry at you. I know you will not be angry at me. This is a difference of opinion. It is a very important

line that is being drawn these days between people who feel that public school teachers have the right to strike and those who believe that they do not have the right to strike.

I emphatically state that I believe it is wrong for teachers in the public schools to strike, at any level, elementary, secondary, junior college, college, or university, I feel this very, very deeply.

I can't find too much substance when you talk about failure to do well by our children, when you think striking by teachers helps to alleviate that problem. That does not weigh very heavily with me. I have an admiration for you as a person. I talked with you. We did not discuss this when we had the very pleasant conference in my office. Certainly, there would be no reason why I would wish to delay your appointment. But I think we have to come to grips, Mrs. Koontz, with our philosophy on this subject.

However, I could not sit here and agree with you when I disagree with you. I do it pleasantly. We can disagree without being disagreeable. That is an old cliche and it is true. I am not alarmed by differences. But I think if a member feels as I do he should say it, just as you have stated your beliefs.

To me, it is not just a question of your endorsing a teachers strike, if it is in a State where they can strike and break the law. You have a philosophy on this, Mrs. Koontz. You believe that teachers strikes regardless of the law within the States are valid.

Mrs. KOONTZ. If I may, Senator Randolph, I would like to clarify a portion of what I said that perhaps did not come out very clearly.

I hope I was making it clear that I think we owe to public employees a better understanding of the means by which they express their protest or their grievances because I do feel very strongly that it is unfair to public employees for us to set limits on the conditions under which they work, their salaries, their fringe benefits, and allow them no way to express it-their discontent-and to have to wait in each instance for the community to take the action that will allow us to retain the many, many good people in the fire, safety, or police force. All of these are in the same category about which I speak as I would about people in medicine, nurses, and the like.

So, I feel very strongly that we must come to grips with it; because if we leave no recourse, then we have to expect something that is not what may be considered desirable. I have not advocated, I hope, at any time here, teachers strikes.

Senator RANDOLPH. You said you could oppose it in New York because it was against the law.

Mrs. KOONTZ. Indeed.

In the State of Michigan the teachers are by the State legislature placed under collective bargaining and there is a procedure which is agreed upon by law, but there are many other kinds of activities that are advocated before that point.

I have always recommended, if you look at any record or any statement I have made, my main effort has been that this is the very last recourse and that there are many avenues to be explored before. Senator RANDOLPH. Mrs. Koontz, it does not become the last recourse. Unions are today vying with one another for membership. There are unions promising the instrumentality of the strike if you join that union, rather than holding membership in another union. I have evidence of this. It is not a last recourse now. We are finding that