Mr. TYRER. I do not understand that. I do not know what sort of crew is not permitted to be brought to the United States.

Mr. Box. With the statement that the witness makes, that the number of the crew is not regulated even on their departure, how could we change that? Mr. RAKER. Is that your view, Mr. Commissioner?

Mr. TYRER. As to the number on an American vessel; an American vessel is prohibited by statute from going with a crew smaller than required by law. Mr. Box. But a foreign vessel is not?

Mr. TYRER. A foreign vessel is not.

Mr. RAKER. This would cover an American vessel, and a foreign vessel we could take up later.

Mr. TYRER. That is existing law.

Mr. RAKER (reading):

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'Third, that the Commissioner of Immigration shall cause each member of the crew of any vessel arriving in any port of the United States from any foreign port or place, to be examined, and shall cause a report to be made to the collector of customs and to the bureau "

"If the examining officer finds that such a crew fails to comply with the requirements of section 13 of the seamen act he shall instruct the master to keep the members of such crew on board of such vessel awaiting further instructions; and he shall at once specifically report such findings and instructions to the bureau "

That is, the Bureau of Immigration,

"and to the collector of customs, who shall refuse clearance of such vessel pending final investigation and action by order of the Commissioner of Immigration, as provided in the foregoing proviso."

That means that if a vessel has a less complement than the law provides the seamen on the vessel shall not be permitted to obtain shore leave until the two departments have collaborated and determined what course to pursue. That is suggested because heretofore the two departments have not been able to collaborate and, therefore, when a vessel comes with a less crew than is provided for by section 16 they come and enter just the same.

Mr. TYRER. Well, of course, that aplies only to an American vessel.
Mr. RAKER. Yes.

Mr. TYRER. An American vessel under the law as it now stands is not permitted to depart from a port unless she has in her crew 65 per cent of able seamen, that is, in the deck crew. Section 13 does not apply to seamen landing, so that you are apparently writing an entirely new provision and that is that if any vessel is found in port without 65 per cent of able seamen, whether she is being navigated or not, then your provision is applicable.

Mr. RAKER. And she ought not to permit any to land until an investigation is made as to what shall be done with the seamen.

Mr. TYRER. I do not see any connection between immigration and able seamen, because an able seaman is a man who has served a certain time at sea.

Mr. RAKER. That is true, but let us take this illustration: There are 500 seamen on board and 50 stowaways; the 50 stowaways put on the clothing of seamen, walk up and enter with the rest that come on shore.

Mr. TYRER. That condition as to stowaways would be discovered when we paid off the crew.

Mr. RAKER. But it is not discovered, as I am credibly informed, under the present working of the law, and I understand that fact can be demonstrated to an absolute certainty.

Mr. SIEGEL. Judge Raker is not referring to American ships but he is now referring to foreign ships, where the United States Commissioner would not be interested in them at all.

Mr. TYRER. There is practically no interest on the part of the shipping commissioner or on the part of the Collector of Customs in the crew of a foreign vessel.

Mr. SABATH. Have you read sections 32, 33, 34, 35, and 36 of the immigration act relative to alien seamen, and the rules and regulations and fines imposed on a vessel which may bring in any alien seamen without having them properly registered, and other provisions? Have you read them, Judge?

Mr. RAKER. Yes.

Mr. TYRER. You mean the act of 1917?

Mr. SABATH. Yes; our present immigration act.

Mr. TYRER. Yes; and we have been cooperating with the immigration people as far as we could in this matter and we have been calling their attention to these sections.

Mr. SABATH. Does not that act preclude any American or foreign vessel from bringing in alien seamen and does it not provide what they are obliged to do before they can secure permission to leave the vessel-is not that true?

Mr. TYRER. Yes; that is true. It seemed to us that if the act of 1917 were enforced you would accomplish practically every purpose in the supervision of the

seamen.

Mr. SABATH. I was under the impression that we had so strengthened the provisions of the 1917 act that it would be nearly impossible for any alien seamen to land and be paid off, and that we had provided heavy penalties against any steamship companies that might discharge and pay off any alien

seamen.

Mr. VAILE. It seems very clear to the present occupant of the chair that if we attempt to rewrite the important provisions of the seamen law and put them in this bill we are going to spend a great deal more time than we can afford to spend in getting the immigration bill ready.

Mr. SABATH. You stated that you have called the department's attention to it-that is, your department has called the attention of the Immigration Department to these provisions.

Mr. TYRER. They have been under discussion; yes, sir.

Mr. SABATH. And you are of the opinion that if they were properly enforced there would be no danger of any alien seamen unlawfully remaining in the United States?

Mr. TYRER. That has been our opinion, but, of course, I think the immigration people should have the closest cooperation of our shipping commissioner.

Mr. RAKER. That is the only purpose of this to force cooperation. I use that word softly and without any reflection on anyone. I understand that to-day there has not been that cooperation because of the lack of a mandatory provision, and the purpose of this is to secure action and cooperation on the part of both before an alien lands. In other words, the Customs Department's report and the Immigration Department's report are not together. The customs official acts and quits-is not that right?

Mr. TYRER. I can not say so much about the Customs Department, but I know that the shipping commissioner is cooperating to such an extent that Mr. Hurley, of the Immigration Bureau, remarked to me the other day that he was having all sorts of cooperation now.

Mr. VAILE. Gentlemen, this is a very instructive discussion; but really, Judge Raker, it seems to me that we can not undertake it, and I would like to see how the committee feels about it.

Mr. RAKER. The point is this: The committee said this should be written into
the bill and this gentleman was brought here for further information, and I
would like to have further opportunity to present the matter. Now, our pur-
pose was to get this gentleman's statement this morning and the understanding
was that this should be written in the confidential print.
Mr. VAILE. I do not remember whether it was.

Mr. RAKER. Yes; that was the understanding last night.
Mr. BEAMAN. That was not the understanding that I got.

Of course, I am

here to do what the committee wants, but as far as I was advised I was never to put it in.

Mr. VAILE. I would like to get the sense of the committee as to whether Judge Raker's amendment should now be put in.

Mr. TYRER. I would like to make this further statement, that section 13 of the seamen act is now being enforced under the jurisdiction of the Department of Commerce; the provisions of that section are ample for its enforcement so far as vessels in the foreign trade are concerned; they are required to produce evidence to the collector of customs that they have the proper crew; if any person knows that they have not a proper crew they may file a protest wiith the collector of customs, who is bound to have a muster of the crew to determine that they do have 65 per cent able seamen. So that, under the present administrative arrangement, it is possible for the Department of Commerce to enforce that law in the foreign trade.

Mr. RAKER. As I understand it the Department of Commerce works independently, separately, and alone; it determines conditions from its examination, then goes off and that ends that feature; that is, that the vessel is in shape and that

the seamen can land. Then it is up to the immigration officers after the seamen come ashore, but the information which one or the other has obtained is not brought together so as to determine the true situation. I hope the committee will leave the matter stand as it was and give me a further opportunity to present it. I have not my matter prepared so as to go into it in detail but I will have to-morrow or next day.

Mr. SABATH. I say this, that if we desire to pass a further restriction bill we had better not put in a lot of matters that are unnecessary, otherwise we will perhaps kill our chances of passing such legislation For that reason I believe we should start out and finish the matter that is before us now, namely, the consideration of the Vaile-Johnson bill.

Mr. RAKER. That is the matter before us now.

Mr. SIEGEL. I make the motion that for the present it be rejected and not be put in the print.

Mr. RAKER. I think that is hardly fair. The chairman is not here nor are many other members of the committee. This matter was not to come up to

be voted on until we disposed of the bill.

Mr. SIEGEL. We have not disposed of the bill.

Mr. RAKER. This was to be written in the bill as it is to be rewritten, and we were only to hear evidence for information, so that when we get the confidential print we will have further information on it.

(Thereupon the committee proceeded to the consideration of other business, after which it adjourned.)

COMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION AND NATURAI IZATION.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
Tuesday, February 6, 1922.

The committee this day met. Hon. Albert Johnson (chairman) presiding. The CHAIRMAN. Spencer L. Dawes, M. D.. medical examiner, New York State Hospital Commission, representing the State of New York. is present and desires to be heard for a few minutes on some phrases of immigration, particviarly with respect to the present method of examining alien seamen.

STATEMENT OF SPENCER L. DAWES, M. D., OF THE NEW YORK STATE HOSPITAL COMMISSION.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe your address is room 1046. Cunard Building. 26 Broadway. New York City?

Doctor DAWES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you a statement you would like to make to us. Doctor? Doctor DAWES. Yes, sir. If I may. I would like to suggest that section 34 of the prior act relating to alien seamen is unfair at present in several respects. The first is that the alien seaman is not examined in the same way that the ordinary alien is. As a matter of fact, therefore, he is a greater menace from a eugenic standpoint than the ordinary alien.

Then the law provides that before he may be deported there shall be a board of special inquiry convened, and the courts have held that to mean that this board of special inquiry shall be convened before the alien has had a warrant served on him. Now that means, in the State of New York, that the immigration officials at Ellis Island have to send three inspectors for, perhaps, a day's or two day's journey from the port of entry to examine an alien seaman before they can even request a warrant. Even if the force of inspectors at Ellis Island were large enough to do it-and it is not. as I happen to know-as a matter of fact it would work a very great hardship. I think the alien seaman should be treated just the same as the ordinary alien. I think he should be examined before he enters in the same way an ordinary alien is examined. I think the alien seaman, so far as the board of special inquiry is concerned. should be treated just as we treat the ordinary alien. In addition to that. I think the period during which he may be deported should not be 3 years, but 5 years, just as it applies to the ordinary alien.

The CHAIRMAN. Do I understand that the State of New York enters into this examination?

Doctor DAWES. The State of New York first certifies the alien to the immigration officers. This is the way all deportation proceedings are carried

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We pick up. say, an insane ailen, and the first thing we do is to go to Ellis Island and ask the immigration officers to verify the entry date of the alien. Many times it is extremely difficulty and impossible to verify the entry dates, because the index of incoming aliens is, due to a shortage of employees, about 3 years behind.

It is impossible to keep the statistical matter up to date, because they have not got the help. We ask for verification of the date of entry and other necessary information, and if we find that the sick, diseased, insane, or pauper alien is in the country contrary to law, we write a certificate on form 584, which is provided by the immigration authorities, and send it to Ellis Island. Then it is the duty of the officials in charge at Ellis Island to go on with further steps and ascertain whether our information is correct. If our information is found to be correct, then the officials at Ellis Island apply to the Secretary of Labor, through the Commissioner of Immigration. for a warrant of arrest. But in the case of an alien seaman, the authorities at Ellis Is and can not request that warrant of arrest before a board of special inquiry shall have met and heard the case.

The CHAIRMAN. That runs through section 34 of the immigration laws, which reads, "That any alien seaman who shall land in a port of the United States contrary to the provisions of this act shall be deemed to be unlawfully in the United States, and shall, at any time within 3 years thereafter, upon the warrant of the Secretary of Labor, betaken into custody and brought before a board of special inquiry for examination as to his qualification for admission to the United States, and if not admitted said alien seaman shall be deported at the expense of the appropriation for this act as provided in section 20 of this act."

Doctor DAWES. The Federal Government should not have to deport that alien. The Federal Government should not have to put up the money necessary to deport that alien. He should be deported at the expense of the shipping line that brought him here, just the same as the ordinary alien is deported.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me get back to your statement. As I understood you. you would reverse the process?

Doctor DAWES. Yes.

66

The CHAIRMAN. Let me get back to your statement. The law says, * * and shall, at any time within three years thereafter, upon the warrant of the Secretary of Labor, be taken into custody and brought before a board of special inquiry for examination as to his qualifications for admission to the United States, and if not admitted said alien seaman shall be deported at the expense of the appropriation for this act as provided in section 20 of this act."

Doctor DAWES. That is what the law says; but the Federal courts have interpreted that law to mean that before the alien seaman is brought into custody, before a warrant is asked for or served, he must have had a hearing before a board of special inquiry. That is the practice in vogue at Ellis Island. The Commissioner of Immigration so stated to me within a week. The courts have compelled the immigration officials to follow out that course. The CHAIRMAN. That embraces the deportation of alien sailors and seamen? Doctor DAWES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Running over a period of three years?

Doctor DAWES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything to say about the immediate steps necessary for the protection of the United States against alien seamen, who are more or less unexamined, from stepping ashore and remaining here?

Doctor DAWES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How about that?

Doctor DAWES. My experience is that this is caused by a lack of a sufficient personnel in the Immigration Service. I am not criticizing the immigration authorities at Ellis Island at all. I believe they are doing ther duty the best they know how, but they have not enough employees, and the practice is to ask the captain of a vessel if he has anybody on board who comes within the provisions of the immigration law-such as insane, or anybody coming within the prohibited classes, and the captain usually says, "No; everybody is all right." And the ship comes in. The crew may desert, and many of them do. They may wander around the United States-they may be in the State of New York for more than three years before they get into our State of New York institutions. While they may have entered contrary to law,

Mr. SIEGEL. Would your statistics not show the number of alien sailors, by vocations, committed to the institutions?

Doctor DAWES. Yes; but I do not think they have ever been segregated as to that. I could find out from the statistician at Albany.

Mr. SIEGEL. You think they have some report like that at Albany?

Doctor DAWES. Yes.

Mr. SIEGEL. When a commitment is made, does it not show the vocation of the individual concerned?

Doctor DAWES. Yes.

Mr. SIEGEL. In that case then it would be a matter of statistics?

Doctor DAWES. Yes.

Mr. SIEGEL. How often have you been over to Ellis Island since last summer? Doctor DAWES. I presume not more than half a dozen times since last summer.

Mr. SIEGEL. And, naturally, you have gone to the hospital there? Doctor DAWES. No; I rarely go the hospital. I have no authority there. Mr. SIEGEL. I know you have no authority there. We are trying to get facts.

Doctor DAWES. When I go to Ellis Island to get official information I go to Mr. Tod, or Mr. Landis, of the board of appeals, or to Mr. Ewell, or to the law division. And I go down there at any time to hearings. Where effort is being made to hold up the deportation of some alien, and I am called, I go down and testify to the mental condition of the alien, because I have probably signed a certificate that the person is a deportable alien.

Mr. SIEGEL. Do you examine each one of these aliens taken from a State institution?

Doctor DAWES. Yes; or my deputy, Mr. Barton, does it.

Mr. SIEGEL. How many persons have you personally examined during the past six months?

Doctor DAWES. We examined altogether in the last fiscal year ended June 30, 1922, 286; we certified for deportation 283; 172 were deported.

Mr. SIEGEL. Do you mean to say that you and your assistant, Doctor Barton. examined that number?

Doctor DAWES. Yes.

Mr. SIEGEL. Does the United States Public Health at any time call on you or Doctor Barton for assistance in examining arriving immigrants? Doctor DAWES. No.

Mr. SIEGEL. Who examines aliens to determine their mental condition?
Doctor DAWES. The United States Public Health Service.

Mr. SIEGEL. Has the Public Health Service any experts in mental diseases?
Doctor DAWES. They are supposed to have.

Mr. SIEGEL. Do you know of your own knowledge whether they have or not?

Doctor DAWES. I do not think I should answer that. I am not in a position to make answer to that.

Mr. CABLE. They give mental tests to every doubtful immigrant; do they not? Doctor DAWES. Perhaps I would better not try to answer that question. Mr. CABLE. The United States Public Health Service has been handicapped by lack of appropriation necessary to get the proper medical officers; has it not? Doctor DAWES. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. At some future time we hope to go into the subject of deportations, and deal with the inability of the various States to have contact with the Federal Government. That is another matter.

Mr. Box. How many of the 286 you certified as being deportable were deported?

Doctor DAWES. Of the 283 certified for deportation 172 were deported.

Mr. SABATH. What are the causes of these increasing numbers-is one of them the high living in New York?

Doctor DAWES. That is an undetermined question.

Mr. SABATH. Have you ever paid any attention to that?

Doctor DAWES. We all are paying attention to it.

Mr. SABATH. Seriously, what is the cause of the terrific increase of insanity in New York?

Doctor DAWES. There are several causes.

Mr. SABATH. How does it compare with the American-born rate of insanity?