population. As you may know, I was involved several years ago in an effort to help the beleaguered Jewish community in Syria. When it turned out we could not get out everyone, we focused our attention on helping some of the single women for whom there were no Jewish men available to marry. We were able to get a dozen out.

You will be interested in knowing that last Sunday the last of the 12 women I brought over was married. I am returning to Syria in August, if they give me a visa. I plan to tell President Assad that I have run out of women to marry off and I need a new supply and hopefully that will soften his heart and he will let some out. [Laughter.]

But I would like to suggest here that this be approached systematically. I personally would be more than happy to cooperate with you in getting invitations and acceptances from various institutions that would qualify under the terms of the American visa and immigration law to have students come here, to see that each of the 200 receive such an invitation.

I assume it is your view that if each of the 200 had such an invitation, they would all want to leave, and then the only question would be whether they were permitted to actually come here. Do you have a list of the 200? Do you know who they are?

Mr. ROSENBERG. Yes. We have a list. The problem is that there must be political direction given to the American consular official. That is a very complex putting together of pieces because you have to get a passport from the Ethiopian Government and an exit_visa. First you have a scholarship. You must have a guarantor and you must have the entry visa to the United States.

What the problem has been heretofore, without a person there to help the Falashas, who are, after all, mostly rural people, untrained in administrative byways and the bureaucracy in Ethiopia is labyrinthine. What happens is one piece always falls apart and nobody gets in. And if the consular official there—and that is a key block-does not help them.

Mr. SOLARZ. Well, if we can try to get a commitment from the State Department that they will see that visas are issued to any Falasha who has a bona fide invitation or acceptance from an American educational institution, that they will give such an individual a visa to study here.

I assume you would be prepared to provide a list so that these individuals could get that.

Mr. ROSENBERG. There is one more problem here. It is also promptness, because without the promptness, what the past experience has been it is all good and well, but they just do not get here. They just do not get out.

Mr. BONKER. You know, Mr. Solarz, what we need is to assign to the consular office in Ethiopia a Raoul Wallenberg.

Mr. ROSENBERG. Absolutely. Now you have hit it.

Mr. SOLARZ. Well, it is an additional reason for getting the Soviets to let us know where Wallenberg is. In fact, from everything I have read about him, I do not doubt for a moment that if he were ever released from the Gulag and were told about this situation, he would see this as a fitting climax to his life's endeavors and would undertake to go to Addis.

Since, thanks to Congressman Lantos, he is now an honorary American citizen, presumably we could make him a Foreign Service officer and send him to Addis.

But I do not want to take up any more time of the chairman of the subcommittee. We have been in touch before and I would like to follow up on this possibility. We will be in touch with you to see what can be done.

Mr. BERGER. The one additional factor, since there is no Jewish presence that could be helpful to the Ethiopian Jews in Ethiopia, that necessitates having some American-or it could be another national-going there. We would prefer an American like Mr. Rosenberg or myself or others, who would be given American protection, while we help them. We would not do anything that is illegal.

That means the Embassy would have to be sympathetic to whatever individual is sent there to assist, and this means simply putting the pieces together to make sure that all of the parts fit, to expedite their leaving. They do not have to leave in mass numbers, but they have to leave regularly.

Mr. BONKER. If we could enlist the support of Congressman Solarz and perhaps Senator Moynihan on the other side, the three of us could petition the State Department and see if we can get

some response.

Mr. SOLARZ. I will be happy to work closely with you, Mr. Chairman, and also I would like to make available the good offices of my staff and myself in terms of soliciting acceptances from the kind of educational institutions that would enable the Falashas involved to qualify for visas.

I have more yeshivas in my district than the rest of the country combined.

Mr. BONKER. But not too many Falashas in your district.

Mr. SOLARZ. We are always looking for more students, and these are established institutions that are fully accredited. I am sure they would be happy to cooperate in making positions or places available for such students.

Mr. BONKER. I do not want to exclude the one person who really got us going on this issue, and that is Tom Lantos, who would be part of our group. Barney Frank also testified earlier, Steve, on the subject. This is a 2-hour hearing and we have consumed almost the entire 2 hours on the Falasha Jews. We have another serious problem of religious persecution in Egypt with the Copts.

So I will excuse from the witness table the gentlemen who have testified. I want to thank you again not only for your testimony but your commitment. We will be working with Congressmen Lantos and Solarz and with you to see if we can do something to provide some relief.

Mr. SOLARZ. Mr. Chairman, if I could make one point-Mr. Karas, I gather you will be testifying about the problems confronting the Copts.

Let me say that I do not want in any way to appear insensitive to your concerns. Unfortunately, I have an engagement in my office in 5 minutes, but I do want to say that I expect to be in Egypt in the next few weeks as part of a trip through the Middle East. I will certainly read your testimony and review the record,

and I will undertake to see what I can do to be helpful when I am over there.

Mr. KARAS. Thank you very much, and I would appreciate if you could mention to Mr. Mubarak to end the exile of the head of the church in Egypt, Pope Shenouda; His Holiness is still in exile for

no reason.

Mr. BONKER. Steve, I might mention that when President Mubarak was here and appeared before our committee, I asked him specifically about the Copts and the head of the church who was under house arrest. He gave me his assurances at that time that Pope Shenouda would be released. May I give you a letter to take with you and ask him why there has not been a response?

Mr. KARAS. I am grateful for that. Even the released bishopsthe eight of them-did not return to their diocese. Instead, he shifted them from the jail to the monastery.

Mr. SOLARZ. Can I tell President Mubarak that our committee has voted unanimously to offer an exchange of you for Pope Shenouda? [Laughter.]

Mr. ROSENBERG. Sir, I just wanted to thank you for the kind of attention you have given us. It was outstanding.

Mr. BONKER. We appreciate the work you are doing, Mr. Rosenberg. Thank you, Steve.

Mr. Karas, I apologize for taking so long to get to you, but you have the floor to yourself. You may proceed.

STATEMENT OF SHAWKY KARAS, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN COPTIC ASSOCIATION

Mr. KARAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to express my gratitude for your concern which was expressed to President Mubarak, and your continuous concern for the welfare of Egypt's Christian.

By the word Coptic, it came from the Greek, the term "egyptus" and when the Arabs came in 641, the word "egyptus" was corrupted to the word "coptic." So the word "coptic" means Egyptian. We are the descendants of the Pharoahs, so we are indigenous Christians before the Islamic conquest in 641.

Mr. BONKER. I think that is interesting to know. I am glad you identified the source of the word.

Mr. KARAS. In 1979 and 1980, the attacks on the Christians were so intensive-raping, kidnaping girls, burning churches. Thus Pope Shenouda and the synod of bishops canceled the celebration of Easter in March 1980. So it is like a protest against such atrocities without the protection of the Egyptian Government.

In June 1981 President Sadat wanted to give the Coptic patriarch and the bishops another lesson that they should not protest. So on June 17, 18, and 19, 1981, there was a dispute on a piece of land owned by a Christian who wanted to build something on it plus a church. The Moslem fundamentalists wanted to take it by force. The Christian owner resisted, so the Moslem fundamentalists on June 17, 18, and 19, 1981, surrounded this area and they took over. Within 2 hours the central police force came and surrounded the area; but the police for 3 days did not do anything.

The Moslem fundamentalists burned Christians alive, threw children from balconies. Between 20 and 100 were either burned or killed alive. A whole family was put between two mattresses and burned alive. It is not reported here.

On September 5, 1981, when President Sadat cracked down on the Moslem fundamentalists he exiled Pope Shenouda; and jailed 8 bishops, 22 priests, and 150 laymen without charges. The only accusation against them was that they protested.

Mr. BONKER. What do you mean they tried to protest?

Mr. KARAS. To protest the atrocities against their people. All they asked was the central Government to protect their people. Mr. BONKER. In what form? I am just curious-the form of the protest?

Mr. KARAS. The protest was that they canceled the celebration of Easter in 1980 as a protest against atrocities. Only that they just canceled the celebration of Easter in 1980.

Mr. BONKER. I mean in what form did they protest?

Mr. KARAS. Yes. They only canceled the celebration of Easter. That is all.

But it was recognized all over the world, in different newspapers all over the world. Now President Mubarak released the eight bishops, but then shipped them to the monasteries. Pope Shenouda is still in exile.

Also, since September 5, 1981, the two weekly Coptic magazines were closed down. Meanwhile the Moslems have their own magazines and are free to do what they want to do.

Now there is new attempts to apply Islamic rules on the Christians. In 1970 the Egyptian Government changed the second article of the constitution and made Islam the state religion and the Koran a major source of laws. In 1980, the Government made the Koran the only source of laws. I am not attacking the Koran or any religion. It is just according to Koran principle, no non-Moslem has authority over a Moslem. This means a Christian could not testify in a court against a Moslem because he has no authority.

use

Christians could not have a leadership position or could because they should not have authority over a Moslem.

The supreme court decided that the Christians are infidels and could not testify in the court, according to the fact file, page 12 to 13.

Mr. BONKER. That is the Egyptian supreme court?

Mr. KARAS. The Egyptian supreme court.

Mr. BONKER. In a ruling it said that Christians are infidels?

Mr. KARAS. Yes, and that they could not testify against the Moselms. I have the case.

Mr. BONKER. And cannot testify against a Moslem in the court? Mr. KARAS. Yes, in the court. This is Arabic. I will read it to you. It is two pages. The first page is the court decision page which is in the fact file. It says that the supreme court of Alexandria has decided that a Moslem who adopted Christianity is considered legally dead. This is on pages 14 and 15 in the fact file.

I produced two pages and here, Mr. Chairman, I have the case in my hand. The translation was written beside that. Now they are trying to apply Islamic rules.

On June 23-on June 28 the Mayo newspapers-official newspaper of the ruling party-indicated that the Speaker of the House, Dr. Sufi, announces this week that the complex task of applying the principle of Islamic law are complete, so they can be put in place of the present civil legal system.

Also, on July 4, 1982, the New York Times indicated that Islamic rules would be applied. We always write to the Congressmen and Senators and they say look-the constitution says that article No. 45 indicates that there are freedom of religion and equality. But I will tell you a case.

In a case before the supreme court on April 8, 1980, a Christian man adopted Islam and then he wanted to go back to Christianity. He wanted to change his identification card from Islam to Christianity. The supreme court refused to change that because in Islam there is no apostacy. The identification department told him that he could not change his religion. If you change your religion in Islam you shall be killed or executed within 30 days.

So the lawyer of the defendant mentioned that article 46 of the constitution indicates equality and freedom of religion. But the supreme court decided that article 46 should not supercede article 2. So everything, even equality, should be interpreted in the context of article 2. Thus, article 46 did not have any meaning.

The apostacy law that the Egyptian Government tried to implement in 1977 is on page 17 in the fact file. According to Al-Ahram newspaper, a bill was introduced to the Assembly in Egypt stating that anyone who changes Islam to Christianity should be executed within 30 days.

The bill, before it was approved, was referred to the supreme court. The supreme court stated the bill was constitutional according to Islamic rules. And here is the bill. Death penalty should be prescribed for any Moslem who converts to Christianity or any other religion. Evidence for persecution can be obtained by testimony of two Moslem adult men. A minor-10 to 14-who converts to Christianity or any other religion is to be whipped 50 times by a slender stick. Anyone who persuades a Moslem to convert to Christianity or any other religion will receive death.

This was Al-Ahram newspaper, the official newspaper. I am translating from it. This was shelved after worldwide protest. Now it is under consideration in the Assembly, which would then be approved next October.

In addition, in accordance with Koranic principle, non-Moslem should have no authority over a Moslem. Thus, no Christian is a college dean, a police commissioner, city manager, appointed Province government or associate, university president, nor can they have any other leadership position because it is written. I am quoting the Islamic principle here, I am quoting from the Koran.

Moslems are forbidden to take Jews or Christians as friends, nor are the Moslems allowed even to employ them.

I am not attacking Islam, I am saying that this is its principle, the Islamic principle when they are applied on us.

Mr. BONKER. You know, that is interesting. The human rights report prepared by the State Department says this-and this is their latest report which came at the end of January this year