and make sure it cannot happen, but that is not, in my opinion, the most serious part of the threat. I would like to say this business Mr. CANNON. What is the most serious part of the threat? You say that is not. What is the most serious? Secretary WILSON. I think it is their bombers. Mr. CANNON. Coming over and bombing us? Secretary WILSON. That is right. Mr. CANNON. We have been told through the newspapers for some time, Mr. Secretary, that you are keeping aloft bombers in constant flight to avoid infiltration and an unexpected attack on the ground. Tell us something about that. Secretary WILSON. We have two different kinds of air operations. There is the interceptor side of it and all of the effort at detection, and then on the striking power side of it are the SAC forces. What we are doing there is flying our planes and getting our pilots and our equipment in a maximum condition of effectiveness and efficiency. They make trial flights around over the United States principally in checking out all their equipment, to see what it can do, and so forth. The bombers are not a part of the interception force and that is not the way they are set to operate. They are the retaliatory force. The continental air defense system with our interceptors and fighters and our radar screens, provides the protection against the enemy bombers. We are trying to improve it all the time. We are trying to get better radars and get them further north so that we will have more warning time. 1 am sure if the Russians try to start a war in the world—which I do not think they are going to do as long as we keep strong they would first have to figure out how they can destroy our SAC bases because if they did not they would get such a devasting return it would be inconceivable that they would start the business. Mr. CANNON. And this new plan of keeping the planes aloft is in anticipation of a surprise infiltration or an attack by an enemy while planes are on the ground-to avoid the thing that happened in the Philippine Islands when they destroyed all of our planes on the ground? Secretary WILSON. I would not say, sir, we were keeping aloft planes in the air solely so they would not destroy them on the ground. Mr. CANNON. But we do have planes aloft day and night; is that true? Secretary WILSON. Sure. Mr. CANNON. I see we must move along. I did not intend to take so much time. OPERATION SAGEBRUSH We can best get an idea of what you think the Russians might do by your recent sagebrush operation down in Louisiana. You tried to visualize, as near as possible, and to bring about conditions as near as possible, which we would have to meet in actual warfare if attacked by Russia. How in that operation did the enemy attack? Secretary WILSON. You are talking about some sort of a war game business, are you not? Mr. CANNON. That is it exactly We tried to simulate as accurately as possible actual war conditions in the event of an attack by Russia. How did Russia attack in those war games? Secretary WILSON. I think that you should ask the military that were down there and let them interpret for you. Mr. CANNON. You are the Secretary of Defense, Mr. Secretary. You are in command. You are in charge. You know exactly what was done. Now, why will you not tell us? Secretary WILSON. Because I cannot tell you in a few words. Secretary WILSON. You are asking me now to do something Mr. CANNON. How did Russia attack in the war games, in the sagebrush operations? Secretary WILSON. Well, they tried to attack with their bombers and we tried to intercept them and used radar, and so forth. Mr. CANNON. Yes. Secretary WILSON. A war game of that type is not as simple as you think because you have to spend a lot of time afterward analyzing it. Mr. CANNON. We do not care about simplicity. The thing is, you there tried to simulate the exact situation in which we would find ourselves if Russia came over the North Pole. What was the result of your experiments down there? Did Russia win, or were we able to defend ourselves? Secretary WILSON. I will answer that later for you off the record because I do not think I will put it on any record for anyone. Mr. CANNON. Tell us now off the record, Mr. Secretary. (Discussion off the record.) REFUSAL TO GIVE INFORMATION Mr. CANNON. Mr. Secretary, you are refusing to give us information which you undoubtedly have and which is of the most vital importance in deciding how much and what part of this appropriation, this request for money, Congress will make. Secretary WILSON. No; but I want to put something on the record. Mr. CANNON. Put it in right now. The best thing to put in there would be to tell us the truth about it. Secretary WILSON. The information the Congressman asked me for I do not have at hand today. He is asking me about some very secret matters that I have offered to have the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Air Force Chief of Staff come over and give him in an off-the-record briefing at some suitable time, but I am not prepared to do it today. It is not because I want to withhold any information from this committee that will help them decide whether our request is too big or too small. I think our request is a proper one, and I am prepared to have the services come up one by one, and have all of the people that you want, come before you and tell you the information. that this committee needs to properly exercise its responsibilities to the country. Mr. CANNON. Mr. Secretary, I am not asking you for any information which you do not have. I am not asking you for anything which you do not at this time know. I am not asking you to put anything on the record which you do not wish to put on the record, but I am merely asking that the committee have the information. RELATIVE STRENGTH OF THREE SERVICES Mr. Secretary, when we were down at the White House on December 13 and you briefed us there at the request of the President, the President being present, you told us that the ratio between the 3 armed services was 1 point for the Navy, 2 points for the Army, and 7 points for the Air Force. You told us that was what you are going to have. To be certain about it, I asked you at the time repeatedly about it, but the budget submitted to us does not bear out that ratio. Why the change? Secretary WILSON. As I remember it, we were talking about roughly $1 billion more that we were going to spend in 1957 compared with 1956 and I said roughly that was $100 million more for the Army, $200 million more for the Navy, and $700 million more for the Air Force. Is that what you are talking about? Mr. CANNON. No. It was stated that that was the ratio between the branches of the service, and I asked you why you were departing from the historic ratio and you said you did not know what the historic ratio was and then went on to discuss it. That was the ratio you proposed to ask up here. Secretary WILSON. What do you mean, 1 part for the Army, and 2 for the Navy and 7 for the Air Force? Mr. CANNON. That is what I am asking you now. Secretary WILSON. There never was any such statement made. We were just talking about the increase in the money and the only point was that we were shifting more of our money to airpower. That was the point that I was making. Mr. CANNON. That is just what I want you to put into the record at this time-why you have departed from that ratio in this budget. Secretary WILSON. We have not departed from any such ratio. Mr. CANNON. Does this budget provide for increased funds in the ratio of 1, 2, and 7? Secretary WILSON. No one ever said any such thing, Mr. Congressman. Mr. CANNON. What was said about 1, 2, and 7, Mr. Secretary, and what did you say when you did not know what the historic ratio was? Secretary WILSON. We were talking about how we would spend the increased money. Mr. CANNON. That is what I am talking about, the increased money. I said that just now. Secretary WILSON. That is the way the figures are. Let us get that clear now. Mr. CANNON. You say that all the increased money in this budget is at the ratio of 1, 2, and 7? Mr. MCNEIL. Mr. Chairman, I believe that part of the discussion referred to the increase in expenditures, and there was an inquiry, as I recall, of how was the increase distributed, and the reply was it was about 7, 2, and 1. That is correct. Mr. CANNON. And you are following that in this budget? Mr. MCNEIL. Yes, and almost $700 million of the increased expenditures over last year is in increases for the Air Force and the balance is between the other two. UNIFICATION Mr. CANNON. Mr. Secretary, what progress has been made in the unification of the services? Secretary WILSON. I think we are making pretty good progress and working the thing out in a practical way under the intent of the Congress as we understand the National Security Act. I do have my troubles, of course, because men of strong convictions do not always agree. I think that we are making good progress. The law provides for separate administration of the services. It did not contemplate, nor would I recommend, a complete integration where you would only have one service. While we have some difficulties in getting unanimity on all matters, it does not disturb me too much. I think it is a healthy thing to air our differences. I think it is a pretty good arrangement. Mr. CANNON. What I would like to ask, Mr. Secretary, is that immediately following the Pearl Harbor debacle this committee was told, and the subcommittee was told, that if the heads of the branches of the service over there had been on speaking terms there was a prospect that the attack would not have been made, or could not have been made as successfully as it was. No such situation obtains at any time between the representatives of the various armed services in any part of the world today, I trust. Secretary WILSON. Not that I am conscious of, sir. DISPOSAL OF SURPLUS WAR MATERIEL Mr. CANNON. I will ask you one more question. I see we are told in the press that you have been selling a large amount of surplus materiel and that about half of it is being sold abroad and is turning up in the hands of the enemy. It is going behind the Iron Curtain and to other unfriendly sources. Is there any truth in those statements, Mr. Secretary? Secretary WILSON. Not knowing the exact article you are referring to, or who said it, I do not know. Mr. CANNON. You have been selling surplus war materiel recently, have you not obsolete materiel, or surplus war materiel? Secretary WILSON. Not in any important way at all. Mr. CANNON. You have been selling the surplus materiel in the last year. Secretary WILSON. Our ordinary procedures are to junk the materiel and sell the junk. Mr. CANNON. What have you done? Have you in the last year sold any surplus war materiel? Secretary WILSON. Into a free market where it could go anywhere? You may be talking about something some other nation did and not our country. I do not know of any such case, sir. Mr. CANNON. We will be glad when you get your transcript to have you give us some answer to that question. Secretary WILSON. I will give you an answer of "no" now, and if I am wrong I will correct it. That is my present knowledge. Mr. CANNON. Very well. That is all we want to know. COOPERATION OF WITNESS I have one more question. I think if we had a little more cooperation we would not have taken so much time. Secretary WILSON. Mr. Chairman, you get me a little confused. I do not know whether you are trying to give me the business because the budget is too big or because it is not big enough. You ask me many details that you should ask some other people about. If they were not going to come here with all the facts, and if I had known you were going to ask these questions, I would have been better prepared to answer them. I have a very great respect for figures and I will not give you any unless I know they are right. Mr. CANNON. Mr. Secretary, I have not asked you anything that the Secretary of Defense should not know, and not be able to answer immediately. Secretary WILSON. That is your opinion, sir. Mr. CANNON. Yes. Well, you are the head of the Department of Defense and these are matters which could not escape the attention of even the subordinates, much less the Chief. I would like to say again what I said in the beginning, I have the greatest respect and regard and admiration for you, both as a citizen, and as an official of the Government. I realize that you are under a difficult situation. You hold one of the most responsible and one of the most difficult jobs in the world today, a job with perhaps the greatest responsibility. I do think that you ought to be a little more frank with us when we have to put up this money. BALANCED BUDGET Just one more comment; as I said, I think there certainly should not be any politics in this matter, but we will keep an eye on expenditures after the election to see if you still balance the budget. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Secretary WILSON. You might tell me whether you are in favor of balancing the budget or not. Mr. CANNON. I have on the floor and off the floor, more than any other Member of the House, I am certain, urged a balanced budget, but a substantially balanced budget, not a bookkeeping balance. is all. Mr. MAHON. We will adjourn to reconvene at 2 o'clock. That We will resume our hearing. I note that Admiral Radford is here for the afternoon session. We are pleased to have you, Admiral. Of course, we have planned our major interrogation, so far as you are concerned, for a later day this week. We look forward with a great deal of interest to the briefing which I know you will give us. INCREASED VULNERABILITY IN SPITE OF INCREASED STRENGTH Mr. Secretary Wilson, it has appeared to me during my congressional service that regardless of the party in power the military people come to us every year and, if it is wartime, they say, "We are stronger than we have ever been before," and if it is peactime they say, "We are stronger than we have ever been in peacetime." Would you say that we are stronger now than we have ever been, insofar as you know, in peactime in a military way? |