Mr. O'BRIEN. In other words, the gifts would not reduce the cost you mentioned but would make possible additional work.

Dr. CHAPMAN. Yes, sir.

Dr. PORTERFIELD. I should point out, if I may, sir, that the cost figure that we have given you is on the assumption that the word "center" in the bill refers to a physical facility center which would house research rather than defining the word as an organizational unit. We are not positive in the language of the bill which of these is meant but we have made the assumption in giving you these estimates, that this calls for a physical structure.

Mr. O'BRIEN. The thought I had in mind was if some large foundation wanted to make a substantial contribution toward the cost of such a building. Wouldn't there be a possibility that that would reduce the cost estimates you are giving or would it merely mean a bigger building.

Dr. PORTERFIELD. That is possible, if it were a sizable contribution it could.

I think that our figures have been as much as possible on the economy side to get the basic essential elements in such a structure. We would, I suppose, try to negotiate between more facilities and more special possibilities and the saving on the basic structure itself. It would depend on the term of the gift and the nature of interest.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I suppose, too, the appropriations committee might take that into consideration if there was a substantial gift from some foundation, they might decide that a smaller appropriation by the Government would be sufficient.

Dr. PORTERFIELD. I am sure they would.

Mr. DOMINICK. I have one more question on the expense angle. I understood from your testimony that in at least 2 years the administrative expenses will be almost 50 percent of the operating research program. What do you include by way of administrative expenses? Dr. CHAPMAN. The administrative cost, sir, is the cost of clerical help, of engineering planning help, the housekeeping, the nonprofessional type of employment.

In other words, during the programing period there are many, many negotiations that have to be entered into. We have to contract with scientists to help us in our planning. We have to provide them with staff assistants. These are the types of expenses that are generally included under administrative costs.

When the facility is finally completed then you have your housekeeping and management such as any industrial corporation has in running a building, in running a plant, in maintaining and repairing equipment, and so forth.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Your administrative expenses when you get into your $2 million level of your research programs are running approximately 25 percent of the cost of your research program.

Mr. DOMINICK. It seems to me that is awfully high from the management point of view.

Dr. CHAPMAN. It depends on the definition of administrative cost. Dr. PORTERFIELD. The expenses that we have had in the scientific community in this country seems to indicate that indirect costs, costs not used just for the research in the highly technical professional ac

tivities alone, but with all of these supplementary, ancillary and helpful costs, runs on the order of 25 percent.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rogers.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Mr. Chairman, I have just a few questions. Dr. Porterfield, where is this Division of Accident Prevention presently housed?

Dr. PORTERFIELD. In the headquarters in Washington, in the HEW Building.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Do you have research facilities there?

Dr. CHAPMAN. No; we have no intramural research facilities. We had transferred to the Division of Accident Prevention, as of last February 1, the research grants operations formerly with the National Institutes of Health. We now have an extramural research capability. We conduct contract research of limited size. We can contract for research.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. How will this bill affect the present program you have outlined for your Division of Accident Prevention?

Dr. CHAPMAN. This would give us the same balance for the research program that now exists in any of the National Institutes of Health where about one-third of their research funds is spent for intramural research, two-thirds for extramural research and additional funds for technical assistance and application.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. This would bring about a center as you envision in the bill, the actual physical building where the research facility would be located?

Dr. CHAPMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. You, yourself, with your personnel would conduct one-third of your research projects?

Dr. CHAPMAN. We would not anticipate reaching that level but the need for this is extremely important. If I might, I would like to explain it. At the present time, if we try to recruit a high-level research worker, he says, "Fine, where is your laboratory, I will move and I will go to work and you can use me throughout the Nation to advise and help others." We say, "We have a room over here and a table and a bench." He says, "Where is my laboratory? Where do I work?"

We don't have any. But with a center situated on a university campus, working with other researchers on the faculty, where research fellowships supply new research blood, you would have the type of facility and the type of atmosphere that would permit the recruitment of researchers. These research fellows, after they have spent 2 or 3 years working on applied research projects, would then go out into the universities, and be trained and capable of applying for extramural research grants. This is the thing we lack now. There is a very great dearth of qualified researchers who can work in the very complicated areas of accident prevention research.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Where are research projects being carried on presently under your program? Are there great numbers of them? Dr. CHAPMAN. We have about 33, sir.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Will you submit that for the record?
Dr. CHAPMAN. Yes.

(The information requested follows:)

80624-62- -3

Research grants in the area of accident prevention-Continued

1 To be negotiated.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Where are your major research laboratories?

Dr. CHAPMAN. Speaking financially and programwise, we have a major study going on at Harvard. Dr. Mosely, the director of that program, will be a witness here and can discuss that in some detail. Another study is being performed in connection with Cornell University and Dr. Hadden, the director of several research projects, is also a witness here today. The Cornell crash injury studies which did so much for the development of improved safety devices was originally under the direction of Mr. Moore and he, if his voice comes back, will be available later on during the session to testify.

The Public Health Service has supported the UCLA simulation study which has resulted in the development of a prototype, an early embryonic form, of universal simulator, and has also supported UCLĂ collision experiments with Dr. Severy, which has resulted in the development of a great deal of information of value to the automobile industry.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. You have no research centers?

Dr. CHAPMAN. No, sir; we have no research center as such. We support research being done in various parts of the country.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. How many personnel do you have now in your Division of Accident Prevention?

Dr. CHAPMAN. 146 and we have a personnel complement of 147 permitted for fiscal 1963.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. How many of these would you say are staff people, I mean experts or professional people?

Dr. CHAPMAN. About one-third.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. About one-third professional?

Dr. CHAPMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Would this change under the new bill? Dr. CHAPMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. What would be your change in personnel? Dr. CHAPMAN. We would have an increased number of professional, highly qualified personnel.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Could you give us some idea of the number? Dr. CHAPMAN. It would run slightly over 50 percent.

Mr. ROGERS. An increase of 50 percent in professional people? Dr. CHAPMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. And would the staff people increase accordingly?

Dr. CHAPMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. About 50 percent for the staff?

Dr. CHAPMAN. Yes.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Did I understand you to say your present budget is $3.5 million?

Dr. PORTERFIELD. The budget for this year for accident prevention is $3,462,000.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. How much of that is for administrative work?

Dr. PORTERFIELD. In research grants about $1,827,000 is earmarked and the rest is for those services including training, technical service, and consultations with State and others, dissemination of information and the administrative cost of the research.