out half of the proofs of the Egyptian Government as well as half of the proofs of the United States. So that our case would then seem to have been built upon sand rather than upon a solid foundation as I had hoped.

Mr. NIELSEN: When you have in mind the difference in the concepts of law in what we call civil-law countries and common-law countries, that may be made clear. In the latter we are more concerned with the question of the admissibility, and in the former more things are admitted, and the judge determines whether the things are worth anything at all. That is not the general principle upon which we must proceed here, where we already have the evidence.

BADAOUI PASHA: I believe they should go on freely and let the rest do likewise.

Mr. HUNT: But suppose that we should go on in this way and suppose that the Tribunal should decide later that these affidavits should not be in; or suppose that the Tribunal should decide that the affidavits are not admissible: then our case would have been presented to the Tribunal, so far as that evidence is concerned, on evidence which does not exist.

President SIMONS: The protestations of the other party have been directed against the affidavit of George J. Salem and the affidavit of George Nassif, his lawyer; and you have taken great care in your briefs to give us the spirit, at least, of the affidavits. Therefore, I expected that you would take care to be sure that the Tribunal would get no idea of what the ideos would be on the other side. In that case, in my opinion, it would have been your best way of proceeding to ask the Tribunal for their feeling about this question. But you didn't do that; you began with the merits of the case. Therefore, as the President of this Tribunal, I have made up my mind to give you time for you wish to say, and then let the other party have all they wish to say, and then we will decide this question which should have been decided before. I only wish

all

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to be sure that the other party will not be deprived of their 'protestations, and that the Tribunal will not be deprived of the right to decide it. And so I beg you to proceed with what is in your favor.

[Here follows a French version of the preceding remarks of President Simons.]

Mr. HUNT: I shall proceed, Mr. President.

Mr. President, may I raise another question at this point, which is apropos? As we know, the full record of the investigation, the criminal investigation, was destroyed by the Egyptian Government. When the United States filed its Case, we asked the Egyptian Government to put in the complete record of the investigation. Its reply with the Counter Case of the Egyptian Government was that these records had been destroyed, and the law was cited which permits but does not require, as I interpret the law, the destruction of the records after a certain period of time. Whether or not that law is applicable in this case, I will not discuss at the present time.

However, the United States happens to be in possession of what we call under the common-law system and the American system of proof, "secondary evidence”, that is, the best evidence after the exclusion of the official records. These records were made by the attorney of Mr. Salem at the time this investigation was carried on.

Now, with our Counter Case, we filed the affidavit of Mr. Nassif covering this full record, and in order not to burden the Tribunal too much, but at the same time to introduce proof which would seem necessary to meet some of the points made by the Egyptian Government, a large portion of this proof was put in; and it was stated in the Reply of the United States that these were extracts, but that the originals would be made available to the Tribunal and the Egyptian Government.

I have here the original transcripts which I will present to the Tribunal, the original transcripts of the evidence made by Mr. Nassif during the criminal proceeding. We also have a translation of those proceedings as taken in

Arabic, and we also have a translation of the complete proceeding in English, and we can distribute one copy to each of the members of the Tribunal and to the Egyptian Government.

BADAOUI PASHA: Is that a complete translation?

Mr. HUNT: A complete translation, yes, a complete translation.

In the interest of a full knowledge of the facts we now submit this complete record, portions of which have not as yet been put in the case. Mr. President, I might also mention in this connection that the proof of the accuracy of the transcript has, perhaps unwittingly, been made by the Egyptian Government itself. We submitted certain extracts of this record with our Counter Case. At the same time our Counter Case was submitted, the Egyptian Counter Case was submitted. In the Counter Case of the Egyptian Government, there are two or three extracts from this record which have been preserved in other forms, in other proofs; and when those were brought in and compared with the records which we have produced here, they were found to compare almost identically, although the records of the Egyptian Government had been translated from the Egyptian into French and the French into English, and ours had been directly translated from the Arabic. I can give the Tribunal references to those parts of the case which establish that proof. If the Tribunal will compare the Counter Case of the United States, pages 631-634, with Annex E of the Egyptian Counter Case, pages 30-31, they will find practically an identical statement of the whole facts; and another comparison, another proof, will be found on page 634 of the Counter Case of the United States in comparison with Annex E of the Egyptian Government at page 31.

President SIMONS: I beg your pardon, Mr. Linant de Bellefonds

Mr. LINANT DE BELLEFONDS [in French]: We have received among the papers produced by the honorable rep

resentatives of the Government of the United States

ample literal extracts taken from this hearing, of this copy of hearing, taken by Mr. Nassif for the Salem case; today apparently the entire copy has been produced, everything that Mr. Nassif had in his possession, that is to say, the entire copy of what he had been able to take. But, in the exhibits of the United States there has been only the translation of that Arabic copy made by the clerk of Mr. Nassif; and, of course, it has been impossible for us, up to the present, to prove whether this translation is correct. I do not wish here to question the correctness of the translation made by Salem himself, since it is he who made it and who indicated that it was made as correct as he could make it; but, one may be mistaken-there are, moreover, certain juridical terms there; now Arabic may be difficult to translate into English. It certainly would be well if a verification and translation could be made. I believe that, at present, such verification is practically impossible; it would very greatly delay the continuation of the debates; but I submit the question to the Tribunal in order that, if account is to be taken of what has been said in the course of this hearing, the Tribunal may, if possible, verify the accuracy of the translation, because we are not making any general reservation. The honorable counsel for the United States, as well as ourselves, will debate on the basis of a translated text-of a translation. I cannot-I have not had an occasion or an opportunity to verify the accuracy. I simply wish to call the attention of the Tribunal to the fact, in order that if, in the course of the examination of this document which the Tribunal will make, it should become possible for the Tribunal itself or someone appointed by the Tribunal, to verify or at least to test this translation [? it should be done]; otherwise it would be necessary for me to request. that an Arabic copy be placed at my disposal for several days.

President SIMONS: The Tribunal is of the opinion that the observation made by Mr. Linant de Bellefonds-that he must take time to see the Arabic original of the trans

lated part produced by the American Government-that the observation is well founded in itself and that the Tribunal will take great care, and will give him an opportunity to compare the original with the translation before the Tribunal makes use of any part of the proof shown by the American Government in this case.

Mr. HUNT: This is the original of which we are speaking.

President SIMONS: Mr. Hunt accepts your declaration, [continuing in French] and he is ready to give you this copy; and the Tribunal will take great care to give you the time necessary to prove all the parts of this document which are to be used in its decision. At the time when the Tribunal holds that certain parts of this original are of a nature to be considered in its decision, it will give you ample time to verify the accuracy of the translation.

Mr. LINANT DE BELLEFONDS: [In French: for an English version of his remarks, see the following statement of President Simons.]

President SIMONS: Mr. Linant de Bellefonds said that if the Tribunal gave the Arabic copy only during the time that is given the American delegation, then it will be too late, and they wish to have the opportunity to compare the Arabic text with the translations given by the American Government just now. And so I ask if you have any objection to our giving these translations to Mr. Linant de Bellefonds.

Mr. HUNT: Nothing whatever.

President SIMONS: So, I told them, when we get the copy back, the Tribunal would make use not of the whole, but only of some parts of same, and that it would not be necessary to compare the whole but only the parts which the Tribunal concludes it will make use of.

Mr. HUNT: In preparing my notes for the presentation of the case, I have made no reference to anything there which is not already in the evidence in the case. However, if Agent and Counsel for the Egyptian Government can complete their examination and criticisms in time to make