The CHAIRMAN. That was before the war?

Mr. LAWTON. 1913.

The CHAIRMAN. You had a little radical trouble there during the war?

Mr. LAWTON. Oh, no. I was a Government volunteer protective agent during th war, and nobody was ever approached, or a letter written. Nobody ever knew the was such an organization.

Mr. VAILE. Have these people a high degree of intelligence?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes; they are a nice class of citizen.

Mr. VAILE. Would you rate them as high in intelligence and general civic qualit as the average of our American population?

Mr. LAWTON. Oh, no; the parents are not so high and skilled. But the childrentake the Finns my boy worked in one of the mines this summer. He was 16 yea old. He worked with a Finn fellow that was a bright mechanic, and all those fores boys have wireless apparutus, and those Austrians and Italian boys have wireles They are very smart boys. They want the skilled jobs and not the rough jobs. The CHAIRMAN. Did these Finnish people talk revolution?

Mr. LAWTON. After they get enough to buy a farm they are good citizens.

Mr. VAILE. How about when they are in the mines?

Mr. LAWTON. They talk socialism; but it is not deep.

The CHAIRMAN. You consider that county one of the best counties in the Unite: States?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes; it is a good county.

The CHAIRMAN. It is a crackerjack?

Mr. LAWTON. Oh, yes; it is one of the best in the United States.

Mr. VAILE. You would not rate these people as high in general intelligence and civil qualities as the people of England?

Mr. LAWTON. Not in civic qualities at first, but they learn, and their children come through fine.

Mr. VAILE. But you have 90 per cent of the positions of the county foreign born, and now you want more?

Mr. LAWTON. If you want this copper you must give us more men. how much you want.

It depends on

Mr. VAILE. The question is not the question of copper, but the question of people. that the committee is interested in, the people of the United States, not the copper o the United States. We are interested in copper. I, for instance, am interested in sugar in my State.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want copper, population, profits, or what?

Mr. LAWTON. Personally, I have five houses, and there are three vacant, and ! would like to have people in them, and I want a good class of people in them that will make a high-grade American citizen. I do not want him unless he is a good one. Mr. VAILE. Chinese are extra good mine workmen, and work long hours and produce a lot. What about the Chinese in your county?

Mr. LAWTON. I do not want him.

Mr. VAILE. Why not?

Mr. LAWTON. I want a class of people that my children, if they want to, can marry into.

Mr. VAILE. You just told us these people up there now are, generally speaking pretty good people, but are not of the same grade of general intelligence as the Ameri can people. Isn't it a fact that the only question is that of degree?

Mr. LAWTON. It is a question of time. Two generations and they will be there. Mr. WHITE. Then, it is not a matter, as I gather it from you, of the natural capabili ties, but it is a question very largely of opportunity, is it not?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes.

Mr. WHITE. Education?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes.

Mr. WHITE. Of course, we all know there was a time, not many centuries ago, whe a number of the English-speaking people-Irish, Germans or French, could read, tha: is, of the masses of people.

Mr. VAILE. And a thousand years before that all the Chinese could read.

Mr. WHITE. I am speaking of the people that furnished the highest types of civilization. I am a member of this committee, and I notice that you are giving a list ( those employees in your industries, and I got from it that they are from norther Europe, very largely.

Mr. LAWTON. They are.

Mr. WHITE. It was my lot, in my boyhood, to be raised in the settlement of Swedish people. They could not speak or read our language. Many of them could not rea their own language. They were very industrious. They were not the same class of

s high a class of people, unless you qualify it, as Americans. They were not as well ducated, but their children and grandchildren were loyal Americans-educated, ultured people of this country at this time. I take it it might be the case with those. Mr. LAWTON. Yes.

Mr. VAILE. That is after they ceased to be miners.

Mr. WHITE. I understood the gentleman to say they left those mines to better their onditions.

Mr. VAILE. The children did, and he has to depend on a new, constant stream of mmigrants from Europe to keep up the mines.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you have some unemployment in the last two years in your county?

Mr. LAWTON. When the war ended, lots of it.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you straighten that up all right?

Mr. LAWTON. To-day there is a good demand for labor. Many have left.

The CHAIRMAN. They left on account of unemployment?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. They went into Grand Rapids and Detroit?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you find unemployment there a year ago?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes; there were a lot laid off at different times.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there many aliens in Detroit?

Mr. LAWTON. I think there are quite a few.

The CHAIRMAN. The city has had a very rapid growth?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. A very heavy European population?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. There is much unrest there among the aliens, is there?
Mr. LAWTON. No.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not feel that?

Mr. LAWTON. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You would not know it?

Mr. LAWTON. Oh, yes; I would know it.

The CHAIRMAN. The Russian workers are there?

Mr. LAWTON. We have very few Russians, but we have some Poles and Lithuanians, but they are high-grade people.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you speaking of Detroit or your place?

Mr. LAWTON. Our place.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not know what is going on in connection with the aliens revolutionary movement in Detroit?

Mr. LAWTON. Only what I have read in the papers.

The CHAIRMAN. Where was this meeting of the liberal-minded in Michigan a short time ago?

Mr. LAWTON. They had that in the southern part, I think, in Detroit. We do not have it out our way.

Mr. RAKER. Let me ask this: You say 50 per cent of these people leave for other towns. You have named the locations?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. You think it is because they want to give their children a better opportunity for education?

Mr. LAWTON. I think so—not education, but opportunities to work in more skilled classes.

Mr. RAKER. Let us get that. You have high schools in your city?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. And the grades, it is as high as any other grades in the State, is it not? Mr. LAWTON. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. They have a recognized standing?

Mr. LAWTON. They can go from our high schools into any college in the United States.

Mr. RAKER. So far as the educational feature is concerned, he can advance in no other city in Michigan faster than in your city?

Mr. LAWTON. Not a bit.

Mr. LAWTON. They have the bonus system, and that will be the minimum, and tcan earn some have earned $6 a day.

Mr. RAKER. Outside of the mines, you must have other men in the mills that higher than that, do they not?

Mr. LAWTON. No; they do not.

We do not pay anywhere near the wages they at Detroit. Take in the railroad shops-they do not get the wages they get in railroad shops in Detroit.

Mr. RAKER. Take living conditions, and the nearness to the farms. Do they get produce cheaper than in Detroit?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes; potatoes at 30 cents a bushel.

The CHAIRMAN. That is an abnormal situation.

Mr. LAWTON. You can always get them for 50 cents.

Mr. RAKER. I have some friends in Michigan who paid $10 a bushel for potatce Mr. WHITE. Potatoes are retailing at $1 a bushel at the grocery stores heren. now, at the Sanitary stores.

Mr. RAKER. They must be 20 cents in your country.

Mr. LAWTON. You can not get over 20 cents if you want to sell a carload lot. Mr. RAKER. Other living conditions are cheaper in your community than Detroit?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. So a man's dollar will go in your community a third further than will go in Detroit?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes; I think it will go more than that, 50 per cent further.

Mr. RAKER. So that the $6 a day earned by the men in your community will go far as $12 in Detroit?

Mr. LAWTON. Pretty close.

Mr. RAKER. Take a man with a family, give him a good home, hot and cold wate and the town conditions are good?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes; they are very good.

Mr. RAKER. Are the moral conditions good there?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes; they are very good, and they also have paved streets, sens connections all over.

Mr. RAKER. Do they have movies and places for the youngsters to go?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. Now, why and how will a man better his conditions or that of h family by leaving your community and going to some other place?

Mr. LAWTON. That is an individual equation, and I can not answer it except th way. They do not want to work in the mines if they can get out of it.

Mr. RAKER. The statement is made, and I want you to give the committee yo judgment, that they would better their condition-I want from your judgment wheth or not financially, as well as socially, a man in a small community, where he is know and his family brought up well, and his boys can get good work, and his daughters c marry good young men will they better their condition by going away?

Mr. LAWTON. I say they will not, for this reason: We have sent our bankers Detroit to check up the boys, and they find the boys are spending every dollar, n putting it aside. I know many families at Detroit that want to come back, but want to go in the mines.

Mr. WILSON. It is the nature of the employment?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes. Before that they could not go to the city because they coul not get the jobs. Now the jobs can be got. We have known instances where men have lined up at an automobile factory, and they pick out these men from 01 county. It is known among these manufacturers that men from the copper county can get a job quicker than anybody else. That is a fact. Go to Henry Ford's factor] or the Cadillac, and tell them that you are from the copper country, and you work a machinist, and he will give you a job.

Speaking about schools and children of foreign-born parents, I was in I ansi the other day and found a Miss Stefanie as one of the first stenographers or clerks the commissioner of insurance department. She came from the country. Her foll were born in Austria. Where we graduate a class in the country from the high schoo the class is composed of 10 to 15 different nationalities, so to speak, all side by side My boy worked in the Quincy mine this past summer as an electrician. Twie a week he was down the mine, and then up on poles. Then wiring houses, fixin telephones, etc. He came home one day and said he liked his job better than friend of his, who was tramming. I said, "What is wrong with tramming?" H said, "It is all right, but is nothing but bull work. You shovel rock all day and wa for the whistle. My job is a lot more interesting, something new every day." The typifies the ideas of a lot of these American boys.

I

Mr. RAKER. No bull work?

Mr. LAWTON. He will do it, but he will not stay on it. He wants something better. Mr. RAKER. Are we going to have so many to do the bull work that they have > interest in the country?

Mr. LAWTON. It is quite a problem, but there is this proposition: I could show ou fellows working in the mines that have retired. Take Pete Sawyer. He was orth a million dollars, and could not read or write, and he would take your grip om the station for 25 cents and carry it for you to the hotel. I know many people orn in old country who could neither read nor write, but left estates of $100,000 : $200,000. Congressman James's father came from common people of England, ut they were allowed to come over, high-grade people, and when the children came ong, the mother and father think there is a big opportunity outside the mines, nd they like that better, and you can not get away from it. That is our proposiDon't want to work in mines.

on.

Mr. WILSON. If you were to secure the needed labor, what countries, in your judg ent, should they come from?

Mr. LAWTON. Some mines are different. In the north part of the country, fcr istance, they like Lithuanians, Austrians, English, and others.

Mr. WILSON. I am speaking about what country the people should come from, in our judgment.

Mr. LAWTON. Go to the Calument Mine, and they are 50 or 60 per cent of ustrians and Croations. They have a Croation Society, and a Croation newspaper. hey had two big Italian cathedrals, one of which cost $250,000. It is not filled now hen they have mass. That class congregated there. Then they have English and inn. Go to the other end, and 50 per cent were Cornish miners, and you have the 'inns, Italians, and all the others but not many Austrians. These people colonize, 'oles colonize, all of them colonize.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that is a healthy condition for the United States? Mr. LAWTON. I was in South Bend last year and I saw thousands of Polish people here.

The CHAIRMAN. Being at South Bend does not answer the question that was asked ou. Do you think that colonization of these people is a healthy condition for the nited States?

Mr. LAWTON. No; I do not. I think they should learn the English language and ix up.

Mr. VAILE. You would not prevent them from colonizing?

Mr. LAWTON. They do it, but their children come along. You will find half their hildren will probably not learn the mother tongue.

Mr. VAILE. Those children are not good for your purposes?

Mr. LAWTON. They are good Americans but they keep shy of the mines.

Mr. WHITE. The problem solves itself in the second generation. Is that right?

Mr. LAWTON. It does as far as the Americanism goes. But we lack miners.

The CHAIRMAN. These Croations, did they go back to their country?

Mr. LAWTON. No; they scattered mostly over the United States, and a lot of them vent back.

The CHAIRMAN. Were they invited back by their government?

Mr. LAWTON. What is that?

The CHAIRMAN. Were they invited back by their government?

Mr. LAWTON. I do not think they were invited back.

Mr. WILSON. Your trouble, it seems to me, as I understand it, is that you can not compete with the prices offered by other industries near where your mines are located. You can not pay the wages they get by going there, and it has practically depleted he mines in your section, this condition.

Mr. LAWTON. I will answer that. In the past year the mines have been running at a loss to keep the organization going. Copper has been lower than it averaged or the past 15 years by 2 cents, while the cost of coal, which is one of the big factors, 8 much higher. Take the Quincy Co.-the coal bill used to be $200,000 and now t is $500,000. Steel is higher, powder is higher, and everything that goes into the column of expense runs right up. Wages are probably 50 per cent higher. Expenses un right up, probably 50 per cent higher than before the war. Now, if they could get 20 cents for copper, we could pay bigger wages, but they are not paying as good s they would be able if copper were higher.

Mr. WILSON. The cause of this migration from the mines in Michigan to Detroit and South Bend and other places is because of the fact that better wages are paid chere, is not that true?

Mr. LAWTON. I think that is 50 per cent of it. But there has also been a large element that wanted to get away from the mines.

Mr. WILSON. And the nature of the employment in the mines and higher wa paid in other industrial centers have depleted your mines of labor.

Mr. LAWTON. That is true.

Mr. WILSON. Your view is the only way you can supply that is to admit im grants willing to go in and work in the mines at a cheaper wage?

Mr. LAWTON. No; we do not want any cheaper wages.

Mr. WILSON. Than the wage you pay?

Mr. LAWTON. No. When mines are running normally, 16 per cent of the cost on the surface; now it is 26. Your overhead is larger. If we could run mines capacity the cost would be smaller.

Mr. WILSON. You are willing to pay a good wage?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes.

Mr. WILSON. But the situation is that you can not pay it now.

Mr. LAWTON. We can not get the miners. If metal goes up, and we anticipate. better wages will follow.

Mr. WILSON. Copper is looking much better right now. If you could pay it, t wage you would like to pay, you believe these people would come back?

Mr. LAWTON. No; that is the trouble. We can not get them back to enter the min They will come back and take jobs on the surface, but we have enough surface m Mr. WILSON. Suppose it would be practical and you could admit the number immigrants you want to go to work in these mines to-day, and if the same conditi repeats itself in a few years, they will be going out and leaving this less desirab employment, and will go to Detroit, South Bend, and other places, and you will fu it necessary to bring in an additional supply?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. WILSON. And create a revolving population that will be continually a stres from Europe, working in mines, and going out to other industrial centers of the Unite States.

Mr. LAWTON. That is the way it has run for 50 years.

Mr. WILSON. Suppose that takes place all over the United States. It is easy conceive that you will have a continual inflow of immigrants there awhile and o practically until you have a foreign population like you have in your section now! Mr. LAWTON. For the past 50 years we have had a turnover of four or five thousan men, and out of those, 1,000 will be new ones, and there is going to be 1,000 going awa permanently, so those that come will probably stay at work. I do not know the pe cent, but probably half of them will stay, maybe 30 per cent-would get out as th children would grow up.

Mr. WILSON. We have a situation in the South something like this, because of the higher wages paid at industrial centers in Illinois and Michigan; this condition causing a gradual flow of the labor from the South into those sections in Ohio, Michigan and Illinois-there has been a great increase in the colored population there due to th fact that they are gradually going to those centers. Just at this time the flow is greate than ever before, and I do not know what the final result is going to be. It is a flo from the agricultural districts in my country to the industrial districts.

Mr. LAWTON. On the same subject; we have an awful lot of land we want to pu farmers on.

Mr. WILSON. When we begin to talk about immigration for agricultural purposes, run into the fact that each staple agricultural product, even with this migration to the industrial centers we have produced a surplus that can not be disposed of; they d not seed potatoes any more in Minnesota, I understand, because of the freight rate, an you have to spend an extra check to pay the freight on the potatoes after you have sol the potatoes; but with 37 per cent overproduction in agricultural products, what w are asked to open up and have immigrants settle on farms to compete with America farmers that is the situation that is hard to size up.

Mr. LAWTON. Here is one feature. Take the Mineral Range Railroad. They have 16 to 18 crews, and that is reduced to 4. They dropped 120 men from skilled labor The Copper Range Railroad reduced from 12 to 8, making 160 men. I know two of those fellows; one was sweeping the streets at Hancock all summer. He was a fireman on the Mineral Range Railroad. He got $75 a month sweeping the streets, and he used to get $145 firing. He is waiting to go back, or he has waited two years. If the mines were running his crew would be called. To support that skilled labor you have to have someone to do the common work. If the mines are running in full capacity, and we put on 10,000 more men, we would have 2,000 more positions for skilled labor, and if you will class the mines and timbermen as skilled labor, they will all be skilled men, all except the trammers and part of surface men.

Mr. RAKER. What effort have you made in Buffalo, New York, Chicago, particularly Chicago, for men?