The CHAIRMAN. If you had that privilege, would you expect plasterers, print and all trades to have the same right in their lines?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Why not? Look what happened in New York. We do believe that coalescing between employer and employees by fleecing the public is proper thing.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you have the Secretary of Labor authorized to say t 50,000 plasterers should be brought to the United States to relieve a situation t seems to interfere with building construction?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. If the bringing over of these 50,000 men would benefit the co try by easing up on the housing difficulties, I would say yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You would let that apply to other trades and industries and † when a little hard times came along, who would be out of work first, the aliens or citizens?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Let us be hopeful that hard times are a thing of the past understand now that we are facing a proposition which will employ every ma the country. I may be a little too optimistic, but I am built that way, and I beli that with the proper facilities extended us by our law makers, we as dutiful citiz could improve not only our little business, but the conditions of the country at la which will develop and present the necessity for a great deal more employment t at present.

The CHAIRMAN. A year ago were your tailors all employed?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Yes, sir; we all felt the shortage. That was my propositio! year or two years ago.

The CHAIRMAN. Was there much unemployment in New York a year ago?
Mr. TWYEFFORT. Not in our line.

The CHAIRMAN. In other lines?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. There was a great deal of unemployment in the building li That was caused by the condition that made it practically impossible to build or r at the prices.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you hear of much unemployment in the neighboring St of Connecticut in all lines of manufacturing?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I do not think I did, but I saw in the papers that there was une ployment, and I am not prepared to contradict that. I am only speaking of wha know.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not familiar with conditions in Connecticut caused the shutting down of factories?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I read of that and that may have been the case. There may ha been a trade condition which brought that about. There may have been str between capital and labor. There may have been strikes. There may have be a number of matters which brought them to the point of unemployment. Bu can only speak for our line.

Mr. RAKER. Did I understand you to say you are paying $40 to $150 a week no Mr. TWYEFFORT. Yes, sir; I went below $40 and said $32.

Mr. RAKER. From $32 to $150.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. That would be $120 a month to $600 a month?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Yes, sir. I will say that perhaps the $150 man may have a helpi The CHAIRMAN. He does not get the $150 himself?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Not personally.

The CHAIRMAN. What does he pay his helper?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. About $30.

The CHAIRMAN. You have nothing to do with the helper?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What hours does he work the helper?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I think the helper works stated hours.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know what hours he works?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. That is according to conditions. When more work is desired th ]ay more.

The CHAIRMAN. They pay overtime to the helper?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It is not done in the old sweatshop way?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Not in our line of business, not the price paid.

Mr. RAKER. You say you have a shortage of this class of men?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Approximately what is the shortage in the United States, if you know? Mr. TWYEFFORT. I would not be prepared to say of my own knowledge which I possibly can not substantiate my statement, but we have one of our members who has some evidence to submit to you on that.

Mr. RAKER. You say there are none of the young men preparing for or coming into this line of work at those prices?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Yes, sir; we know of none. but our trade schools have not been successful.

We have endeavored to bring them

Mr. RAKER. That pay is almost beyond any other pay for any other trade in the United States.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I am not prepared to state that. I understand that in steel and in coal that has even been surpassed.

Mr. MALONEY. How many hours a day do they work?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. An average of 8 to 10. If they exceed that they work by the hour and are paid accordingly.

Mr. MALONEY. Piece work is from $32 to $150. How many men get $150 a week? Mr. TWYEFFORT. In our ship, six.

Mr. MALONEY. How many get $32?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Four.

Mr. Box. The witness said that where they got $150 they had helpers.

Mr. MALONEY. I understand that.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Those men coming under the last quota you mentioned are week workers and paid by the week.

Mr. MALONEY. The $32 men.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. From $32 to $36.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you a member of the National Association of Merchant Tailors? Mr. TWYEFFORT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. They were getting up a questionnaire sent out by John B. Ellison. Mr. TWYEFFORT. This was done by our board and the report is here and will be submitted to you.

Mr. RAKER. Is the condition of the trade or the kind of work such that American young men or middle-aged men will not become proficient in it and obtain the wage that you speak of? What is the reason that our American citizens will not become proficient through trade schools and otherwise so as to obtain this compensation that you speak of. Can you explain that to the committee?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I think I can to the satisfaction of the committee. I look at it this way: I received lately from the United States Chamber of Commerce a referendum on the question of national education. Permit me to take this attitude. I can not state my position unless I do. This referendum will be acted upon and I am very much in favor of it from one standpoint because I believe in education. I think it is the great desideratum of the country. But, on the other hand, if it simply means the higher education which will still increase the office workers class, if you permit the word, and decrease the number of workmen, then I think it would be a mistake. I believe that every child in this country, whether he be a son of a citizen of the country or of a alien, should be required to acquire the education which he needs to make a good citizen. Now, where the point shall be reached where this Government teaching will stop is a question which is debatable. I believe the higher education has cut out the desire to learn trades and that is what we suffer from in our line of work.

Mr. RAKER. Put it this way: What is the objection to a college graduate dropping into this trade and becoming proficient in it where he can get from $150 to $600 a month for his work?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I would explain it to you in the same way that Edison did to the professor from Princeton, when asked a similar question.

Mr. SIEGEL. As a matter of fact, you are confronted with a condition and not a theory.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Exactly; higher education will kill apprenticeships.

Mr. SIEGEL. Do you mean to say that if you give a man a high-school education he becomes inefficient to do the kind and character of work of a tailor, which has a high return in compensation, from $200 to $600 a month?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. If he will stop at high school, no; but once he becomes a collegiate student it is different. His aspirations, and rightfully so, are raised, but as long as we live we will have to have a man to do work for a fair or a higher remuneration. Now, then, I might apply that also to the farming of the country. A college man may go and do farming.

Mr. RAKER. The point you make is that if you give a man education be becomes unfit to do work?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I would not like to be quoted as saying that. I will say higher collegiate education.

Mr. RAKER. Where do you expect to get these laborers from, that you are askin to have the law amended so that they can come in?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. From abroad.

Mr. RAKER. From where?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. What countries?

Mr. RAKER. Yes.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. From Sweden, Denmark.

Mr. RAKER. From Sweden we have 12,475 yet to come in this year. There a 7,566 arrived; so there is an unlimited supply to come from Sweden. The law woul not have to be amended to affect them at all.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Very true. I made a statement, and I know it is true, that t!! propaganda has gone abroad that there are no more admissions.

Mr. RAKER. That is good propaganda. But there are 12,473 yet to come fro Sweden from December 20 this year up to June 30, 1923.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Some will come.

Mr. RAKER. What other country would you expect these high-class tailors from? Mr. TWYEFFORT. From Denmark, England, France, and Spain.

Mr. RAKER. From Denmark we have 3,486 to come to the United States from December 20, 1922, to June 30, 1923. So there is a large number, 2,999 left as the balance of the quota. Let us take the United Kingdom. From December 20, 192. to June 30, 1923, there can come 38,887. So there are no restrictions there.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I understand that and I acquiesce in the correctness of you figures.

Mr. RAKER. What suggestion do you make to the committee for the amendmen of the law when it has been shown here already that over 50,000 from the countrie you name can come here, Denmark, Sweden, and United Kingdom.

Mr. MALONEY. He named France.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. The same thing.

Mr. RAKER. From France there are 2,614 could come, from December 20, 1922, t June 30, 1923. That being the case, there must be some specific reason in your mind. and if you would kindly give it to the committee, we would appreciate it very much Mr. TWYEFFORT. I will repeat myself by saying again that my information come from people who arrived from those countries and who tell me that it is under the greatest difficulties that they arrived and that they were threatened with being re turned for some reason or another, so that they do not consider it safe to make a start from their respective countries.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you favor a plan which has been proposed, to wit, the setting of the census figure back to 1890 and making a quota under that census figure liberal so that the people from the particular countries you name and other countries would know that there were large quotas available?

Mr. TwYEFFORT. Mr. Chairman, it is not really in our province to come and advis your committee as to your duties. We are willing to bow to whatever your decision may be. We simply make a plea for a better understanding of employment be tween the different countries of the world. There is an opportunity here for men in our line of business to come and earn a good living. We make that statement and our books are there to prove it and we would gladly open them to any of the members of your committee should they visit New York.

Mr. RAKER. Here are five countries named, and something over 50,000 are admis sible. Now, you are asking amendment of the law for what purpose and in wha way? It is open and free for them to come if they are qualified and possess the nece sary qualifications to enter. You do not suggest propaganda to bring people ove do you?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. No; but we suggest that propaganda which has been started ther by some people who are interested should be counteracted.

Mr. RAKER. You would not expect by legislation to start adverse propaganda? Mr. TWYEFFORT. No; but I would gladly claim the suggestion made by the chairman of the committee, that it would be unequivocally stated, that in view of the neces sities of the country, which will be far greater in a year from now than to-day, that this subject should be broadened in accordance with the question of the Chairman, so that admission to this country of desirable citizens able to earn their living and who would later become prospective citizens of the country would be open. That is the point.

Mr. RAKER. Let us take France, Denmark, Sweden, and United Kingdom. Do you know during the last year any people from that country who are qualified that have been returned or that have experienced any severity in coming in when they landed here at Boston, New York, or Philadelphia from those four countries?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I have stated again and again that from my knowledge, which, of course, is not the one that you have, as you have the official figures, and you as a nember of the Immigration Committee have made that a thorough study, but I can not say that men were returned because they were, perhaps, fitted to come but did not come up to the requirements. That I am not prepared to say. But I am prepared to say that conditions have brought about a condition such as I have described in getting citizens from any of the countries you have named to come here. They consider it impossible and my information I can substantiate by bringing a statement from those who consider it impossible for a man to come here with his family after selling whatever he may possess over there and risking that with a possible return. As long as that condition will prevail, this condition that we are now endeavoring to mprove will be substantial and will enlarge itself. But, as the chairman of the committee states, that is a proposition to be considered, and I think it would open the way to bring in desirable citizens, retaining the restrictions which have been so well put to keep out undesirables.

Mr. RAKER. Just tell us where we can get this information that you just told us about.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Shall I send you some?

Mr. RAKER. Tell us where.

The CHAIRMAN. Send us a statement.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Our organization is suffering to-day-I speak of the Y. M. C. A.from those losses. The men that we receive are desirable young men who have proven such, introduced as such, and yet can not come and would like to come, because the difficulties according to their standpoint are insurmountable.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you if some of the difficulties are not entirely due to the quota law but to the fact that immigration being reduced the number of opportunities for examination of the immigrants are greater?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I am not prepared to say.

Mr. WILSON. I am very much interested in your statement relative to college education destroying apprenticeship. Do I understand that your view is that among the masses there can be too great a degree of education?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. It depends upon my standpoint.

Mr. WILSON. I mean college education.

Mr. TWYEFFORT. College men as a rule after spending four years in college are from their standpoint, and rightfully so, considered as available men for higher standards, or else their four years have been frittered away. I realize that a man to be a college graduate must be 21 or 22 years old, by those whom I know who have passed through college and who have made good in the upper lines of business. Would you expect those men to still give three years more time to learn our trade. That is the time required to make a good tailor, three years. That is the time served abroad, and those are the men whom we get from abroad and whom we have always gotten for this line of business.

Mr. WILSON. A short time ago a certain university professor declared in favor of an intellectual aristocracy and stated that only a limited number of people should receive university education, that it would be proper policy, so as to maintain the proper numbers all the way down along the line. Do you agree with that?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. As a rule I do not speak of a subject upon which I am not thoroughly posted, and I would say this, that if a man has gray matter sufficient to form him for the upper strata of commerce-we have no nobility in this country except acquired by marriage, so I do not consider that I say that if a man has sufficient gray matter to become a very proficient business man it would not be $150 a week that he might look at, it might be $150,000 a year. say, and some have made it. Every day as you take up the paper, and in this morning's paper, you can see where a Chicago boy who was an office boy has become to-day the president of the largest business organization in Chicago. That is the glory of America. The gates are opened to those boys to the upper strata. not in the nobility line but in the brain line, and that is the way I look at it.

This matter that I brought up about a referendum of the chamber of commerce of the United States, I have not yet fully considered it. neither do I know what I will suggest as counsellor of the association. I believe in higher education. Let me not be misunderstood, but I also believe that when a boy is not fitted for it, it is a mistake to push him on to it, because you withdraw his earning capacity for years until he finds out that he is not fitted to be a college president or a railroad president or a bank president but should be something else.

Mr. WILSON. Your opinion is that conditions and aspirations and qualifications of an individual would take care of this higher education problem without restricting it?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Certainly.

Mr. WILSON. You spoke about the tailor's trade, that it took in Europe three yea to learn the trade, to qualify them?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. To make them proficient.

Mr. WILSON. Are there any institutions in this country that teach trades of this kin so that a boy who might wish to become a proficient tailor can go there and get prop training to fit him for that occupation?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. We have endeavored to create such trade schools in our organi tion, but have not succeeded.

Mr. WILSON. In order to have an adequate supply of efficient tailors, is it necessa to widen the scope of immigration laws that exist to-day?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. It is in my opinion.

Mr. WILSON. What per cent do you estimate that you are short of proficient men that line?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I would like to say to you gentlemen that our Mr. Wetzel has the figures in his hand there and would like to have the opportunity of enlighten you where I can not.

Mr. WILSON. I am very much interested in this. Your position is that there is occupation that is remunerative from $32 to $150 a week, and that there is not a su cient supply of qualified men in America to carry on the industry. Is that it?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I would make that statement. But I do not think it applies on to our trade, but to almost all trades. I have mentioned steel, coal mining, and mig mention others that are in the same state we are in.

Mr. WILSON. Your call is for skilled labor?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. We are skilled labor.

Mr. WILSON. Are there any of these business organizations within your knowled, that have a deficit of what they call common labor?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Perhaps that would not apply to our industry. That applies many because common labor furnishes the material for the skilled labor.

Mr. WILSON. About a year ago we had hearings before this committee in which me who were qualified stated that there were from five to six million people out employment walking the streets, and that conditions were most serious on account that, and that in some places it was almost bordering on a declaration in favor of bo shevism. Are all those people employed now? Has this deficit of labor occurred i one year?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Were I to place myself at the time you refer to I would challeng that statement. I do not think that has ever existed. No soup houses will ever make their appearance again in America and they did not at that time. Men do no have to depend on charity to subsist. That is a thing of the past, and I think will be for my life time and for my immediate following.

Mr. RAKER. You are a skilled tailor yourself?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Where did you learn the profession?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I was born in Brussels, Belgium. I came here at the age of Mr. RAKER. Where did you learn the trade?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I went back to Europe and between the ages of 11 and 16 I learned my trade.

Mr. RAKER. And followed your profession in the United States?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I came here as a tailor, foreman cutter, and merchant.

Mr. RAKER. Will you tell us how is it, if we have to go abroad to get tailors, the clothes, shoes, and other kinds of clothing have a distinct character in the Unite States, as compared to any foreign country. We are supposed to have the best styles. How is it that America is doing that to-day if we have got to go abroad a bring the men here to do that work?

Mr. TwYEFFORT. As an individual, I am delighted to come and hear a member the committee extol our art. I am proud. I am delighted I came, and I hope th the stenographer will take that down. I make that plain, that we must make good we must bring forth.

Mr. RAKER. Travel abroad and you notice it. It is a fact.

Mr. TAYLOR. I understood you to make the statement that you understood there was a shortage in coal miners. You do not insist on that statement, do you?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I am stopping at the New Willard, and I had to open my windows to get livable air. Where I live in Long Island we have cut wood for fuel.

Mr. TAYLOR. Do you not understand that there are 250,000 coal miners idle now on account of the congestion?

Mr. TWYEFFORT. I do not like to be drawn into a statement of conditions I am not conversant with. There was a long time when no coal was mined. Why is a question that might be discussed here. We have had no such time in our line of business and