Mr. MANN. Yes, sir.

Senator PURTELL. So would you say that the end result would be a useless and additional tax burden if we were able to improve the safety on the highways for those trucks engaged in interstate commerce?

Mr. MANN. Well, of course, we are all interested in safety.
Senator PURTELL. I know you are.

Mr. MANN. We are doing all in our power to help the Commission publicize these rules. We just feel the man who right now doesn't know he is subject to the regulations will not know about this law if it is passed. Somebody still has to tell him. So why not spend that effort and time giving him the regulations instead of getting a registration? I don't think the matter of one more form is as important as the fact that business is getting so many. I would like to go off the record on this because I haven't investigated fully the statement

I am about to make.

Senator PURTELL. All right; if you wish to go off the record, very well.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator PURTELL. This registration isn't a very onerous job, is it? Mr. MANN. No, it isn't, but it is just one more added to the many things that business is having to do. Now, the other day a man sent me a questionnaire with 51 exhibits that the Highway Research Board had sent him to fill out or get information on. And he wanted to know what to do with it. He said it would take them 16 hours to answer those questions.

Senator PURTELL. This was sent by whom?

Mr. MANN. Highway Research Board. I found out later that it was not supposed to have been sent to him, that an interviewer was supposed to have come around and interviewed the man, but the Board estimated it would take a half a day of the interviewer's time to ask the questions, it was so detailed.

Senator PURTELL. Senator Smathers

Senator SMATHERS. I see that I have been quoted here.

Senator PURTELL. Yes. I suggested since you were not here, I suggested that your whole statement on the Senate floor be made a part of the record.

Senator SMATHERS. Thank you.

Senator PURTELL. Rather than just this small portion of it.

Senator SMATHERS. Yes. Well, the only thing that I think this demonstrates is what Carl Hayden, when he sees a young fellow, he says, "Don't make a speech, just go ahead and vote. You can explain a vote but you can never explain a speech." [Laughter.]

It just shows you, like Mark Twain, how much a fellow can learn. [Laughter.]

I don't know, I don't recall very frankly having said just that, but I have no doubt but what I did say it.

Mr. MANN. I have it here.

Senator PURTELL. Except if the rest of the speech were there it might throw a different light on it.

Senator SMATHERS. It might. The background of it, as I recall, was that we were trying to get some of our people to vote for the trip leasing bill. In order, I think, to pacify some of the agricultural

folks, we were going down the middle, as you know, trying to pull them in from both sides. So it may have been that this was one of the things we were saying for the benefit of the farmer. I would be afraid of regulation. I always have been of total economic regulation. But I don't see the danger in this particular bill, as I seem to say here. I would have to disagree with myself if that is all there is to it-I don't think that is a necessary-it may be customary, but I don't think it is a necessary corollary. Anyway, it will just have to stand as said.

Do you have any other questions?

Senator PURTELL. I haven't any questions. I want to thank, Mr. Mann, unless you have some, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SMATHERS. No.

Mr. MANN. I would like to give a plug to the ICC. The bureau of motor carriers has printed a very excellent poster, about 3' by 5′ and printed in red ink, attention truck drivers, or something like that, which gives the finest digest in a nutshell of the ICC motor carrier safety regulations I have seen. I think if that could be given distribution all over the country, it certainly would be excellent. I don't know their plans about it.

Senator PURTELL. Thank you very much, Mr. Mann.

Our next witness, according to this list, is Mr. Durward Seals, traffic manager of the United Fresh Fruit and Vegetable Association. Mr. SEALS. How do you do, sir.

Senator PURTELL. How do you do, Mr. Seals.

Mr. SEALS. Shall I proceed?

Senator PURTELL. You may proceed.

STATEMENT OF DURWARD SEALS, TRAFFIC MANAGER, UNITED FRESH FRUIT & VEGETABLE ASSOCIATION

Mr. SEALS. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, my name is Durward Seals, and I am traffic manager of the United Fresh Fruit and Vegetable Association. This is a national trade association, with headquarters in Washington, D. C., having nearly 3,000 members, residing in all of the States, who are engaged in growing, shipping, packing, and distributing fresh fruits and vegetables. Because of the nutritive value of fresh fruits and vegetables, their necessity in a balanced diet and their importance as protective foods, they play an important part in the food supply of this Nation.

The growing population has caused more production and has thus necessitated more transportation service. The importance of this service to the national economy is perhaps best evidenced by the fact that fresh fruits and vegetables represent more than one-fourth of the total average per capita consumption of food in the United States. We are opposed to the provisions of S. 1490.

The members of this association are very much concerned with regulations affecting motor carriers. There are some 500,000 to 700,000 carlot equivalents of fresh fruits and vegetables moving annually by motor truck. The exact figures as to the total movement of fresh fruits and vegetables by motor carrier, including certificated and private motor carriers, are not available, but it is a matter of common knowledge that a very large proportion of the tonnage of fresh fruits and vegetables is moved by the agricultural hauler.

I want to make it abundantly clear that this association is no less concerned over preserving safety and obtaining compliance with appropriate safety regulations than is the Interstate Commerce Commission and any of those who may be supporting this bill.

We are in favor of safety. We question, however, the effectiveness of S. 1490. We doubt that it will accomplish the objectives sought by the Commission. It is our understanding from testimony submitted by the Chairman of the Interstate Commerce Commission that the main objective of the bill is to promote complance with the Commission's rules of safety and hours of service regulations. However, it is not clear from the testimony or from the statements made at the hearing on March 20 by the proponents of the bill as to how this would be accomplished. We are of the opinion that such a regulation would merely increase the workload of the Commission and would unduly burden the private and exempt hauler.

I have read the testimony of Mr. George E. Vawter, traffic manager of the Sun Maid Raisin Growers of California who appeared on March 20 for the National Council of Farmer Cooperatives and would like to endorse that portion of his testimony wherein he suggested that a more sound approach to the problem would be through a voluntary program wherein the Commission would distribute its safety regulations through trade associations representing agricultural interests, industrial organizations, and organizations representing private and exempt carriers.

I have been authorized to state that the United Fresh Fruit and Vegetable Association would be happy to join in such a cooperative

program.

It is my recollection that a former Commissioner of the Interstate Commerce Commission at one time recommended that the safety and hours of service regulations of the Interstate Commerce Commission be distributed through State bureaus of motor vehicle registration at the time the State issued the appropriate truck license. We believe that this suggestion has considerable merit and that such an approach would be more effective than S. 1490, and could be accomplished at a mere fraction of the cost of a program promulgated under S. 1490. We believe S. 1490 is the wrong approach to the problem the Commission seeks to solve and we urge your committee disapprove it. Senator PURTELL. Thank you, Mr. Seals. The reason I have no questions is because your testimony is similar in content to the testimony offered by other witnesses, and so any questions that I might ask you have already been asked others.

Mr. BARTON. Mr. Chairman may I ask a question?

Senator PURTELL. Yes, counsel wishes to ask a question.

Mr. BARTON. Would you have this work done through both organizations and the States? Are those alternative proposals, or would you use both the organizations and the States?

Mr. SEALS. No, as I recall yesterday, in the colloquy between the chairman and Chairman Clarke of the Commission, the chairman suggested, or implied, that a voluntary program would be desirable, to try it out for a while. My thought would be that we would work through the national trade associations, such as the American Farm Bureau organizations, the granges, National Council of Farmer Cooperatives, International Apple, National Industrial Traffic League,

and other national organizations who represent both people in the transportation field and in industry and agriculture.

Mr. BARTON. Would they distribute the safety regulations to their members?

Mr. SEALS. My understanding is they would not distribue the regulations, themselves, but a digest which would call attention to the pertinent parts of the regulations, and, of course, with instructions as to how the regulations, themselves, can be obtained. In that respect I might say that we, along with some of the other associations, from time to time do call our members' attention to the fact that they are subject to these particular regulations, safety regulations of the Commission.

Our primary concern is with the agricultural exempt hauler who operates under 203 (b).

Mr. BARTON. Would it suffice to acquaint your members with the fact that they are responsible and have them get their regulations in one place, the ICC, rather than get them from 48 State governments?

Mr. SEALS. As far as the members are concerned, with the operation of their own equipment, I do not believe that would be the problem. I believe most of them are cognizant of the fact that they are subject to those regulations, and they know they are put out by the ICC.

I believe the compliance they are trying to secure is for the exempt hauler who operates only under the hours of operation and safety, who is not subject to economic regulations, therefore has no direct contract with the Commission.

Mr. BARTON. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

Senator PURTELL. Since you refer to the colloquy that took place yesterday between the chairman and Chairman Clarke, I think that the chairman did express the thought-I am not sure that he expressed it as his consideration, but we are exploring every avenue-wondered if perhaps a period of time, let us say a year, might be employed, in which this voluntary plan might be tried out, and in which the various organizations might take it upon themselves to supply their various members with these regulations.

I don't think he made any firm commitment as to his being in favor

of that.

Mr. SEALS. No, sir.

Senator PURTELL. But we are trying to find every reasonable way of solving the problems coming before us. That was just one of the suggestions made.

Mr. SEALS. I didn't mean to imply

Senator PURTELL. I know you didn't. But I think the record ought to be clear.

Mr. SEALS. Thank you, sir.

Senator PURTELL. The next witness is Mr. Matt Triggs, assistant legislative director of the American Farm Bureau Federation. Is Mr. Triggs here?

If Mr. Triggs isn't in the room, what about Mr. Richard G. May, vice president, maintenance and operations department, Association of American Railroads.

Mr. May, I think you have been waiting patiently to tesitfy, too, haven't you?

STATEMENT OF RICHARD G. MAY, VICE PRESIDENT, OPERATIONS AND MAINTENANCE DEPARTMENT, ASSOCIATION OF AMERICAN RAILROADS

Mr. MAY. Mr. Chairman, my name is Richard G. May, and I am vice president, operations and maintenance department, of the Association of American Railroads. My office is in the Transportation Building, Washington, D. C.

Prior to my election as vice president, operations and maintenance department, of the Association of American Railroads, on September 1, 1953, I had completed approximately 25 years of continuous service with the New York Central Railroad and its subsidiaries in various capacities. Starting in June 1939, when I was appointed trainmaster, and subsequent thereto, my employment was directly connected with railroad operations, and from May 1, 1949, to the present time, has been in both operations and maintenance.

I have reviewed the recommendations of Chairman Owen Clarke of the Interstate Commerce Commission in his letter to the Honorable Warren G. Magnuson, chairman, Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, dated February 8, 1957, and the proposed bill and the justification regarding its adoption. The proposed legislation is contained in S. 1386.

The proposed bill would amend the safety appliance acts to require the Interstate Commerce Commission to prescribe, after hearing, rules, standards, and instructions for the installation, inspection, maintenance, and repair of power or train brakes.

Mere statement of the purpose of this bill shows that it would give the Commission very broad new powers in a field which has heretofore been the province of the railroad managements. We believe that this grant of new powers is unnecessary and we urge that this committee give it no further consideration.

This bill goes on the assumption that railroad managements have failed to fulfill their obligations to provide safe operating equipment and to establish safe operating procedures. The Commission's justification, in fact, states flatly that we are either deliberately ignoring our rules respecting train and power brakes or are unable to enforce them.

Rules for inspection, maintenance, and repair of train brakes under which railroads operate at present, as well as any rules the Commission might issue if this bill were enacted, are all designed to promote safety of railroad operations. They have no other reason for existThese rules are not an end in themselves but a means to an end, the end being of course safety of operations.

ence.

Senator PURTELL. May I inquire: Are the same rules and regulations obtained on all railroads?

Mr. MAY. No, sir; they are not.

Senator PURTELL. There is no standard set of rules, then, that have been set for maintenance, regulation, inspection?

Mr. MAY. For maintenance, we have in what we call our interchange rules which I will come to in my statement. There we have prescribed maintenance rules.

Senator PURTELL. These are suggestions?

Mr. MAY. No, those are mandatory rules.