Mr. Ross. If I did, I would qualify it by saying that I got my information, as a rule, from the Iron Age. I have seen articles to that effect before.

Senator TALIAFERRO. As a matter of fact, have these foreign manufacturers bid on material for this work on the Isthmus?

Mr. Ross. Yes; we have had a good many bids, not through foreign houses direct, but through their agents in this country. We are having such bids on material all the time.

Senator TALIAFERRO. And they did not offer to undersell this market?

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir; on the opening the other day quite a number of the lowest bids were on foreign material-bar iron and material of that kind.

Senator TALIAFERRO. Do you expect to place orders with those bidders?

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir; whenever their price is the lowest and their delivery is satisfactory. We would make no discrimination against them.

Senator TALIAFERRO. You stated, Mr. Ross, that it was well known among the railroad companies that the rail mills had a lower price or put a lower price on their rails for foreign consumption than for American consumption.

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir.

Senator TALIAFERRO. That is the rule with the mills, as you understand it?

Mr. Ross. Well, I do not know whether it is the rule or not, but I know that they have in a good many cases, and that it has been well known by the railroads in this country that they are paying higher prices than the same mills sometimes make on rail for foreign use.

Senator TALIAFERRO. Do you know about what the difference is? Mr. Ross. I do not know definitely, any more than what I have said in connection with our own rail, of course.

Senator TALIAFERRO. Have you inquired what the freight is from this particular mill where you bought this rail to Baltimore?

Mr. Ross. No, sir; I have not. They do not usually pay any more freight than they have to, and I imagine it would be about 75 or 80 cents a ton, probably. So that I should say that that price would be equal to about $25.60 or $25.65 at the mill; probably about $25.65. Senator TALIAFERRO. The regular price at the mill is what for American use?

Mr. Ross. It is supposed to be $28.

Senator TALIAFERRO. Then the price you paid would be $25.65 against $28?

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir; approximately so.

Senator KITTREDGE. I asked you at the last session, Mr. Ross, if you had with you specifications for locomotives.

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir; they were printed in the record.

Senator KITTREDGE. They are printed in the record which is before us this morning?

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir; they are in the copy of my testimony of the other day. The specifications for the cement and the steam shovels and the locomotives that you asked me about are all printed in this record of my testimony.

PO-VOL 2-06

Senator KITTREDGE. What other materials in large quantities have you purchased since you became connected with the Commission? Mr. Ross. Oh, we have purchased flat cars and great quantities of lumber, of course.

Senator KITTREDGE. When were the flat cars purchased?

Mr. Ross. The flat cars were purchased in October.

Senator KITTREDGE. Of last year?

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. Who prepared the specifications for them? Mr. Ross. Mr. Stevens.

Senator KITTREDGE. Have you those specifications here?

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir; I have them here.

Senator KITTREDGE. Have they been put into the record?

Mr. Ross. No, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. I would like to have you leave them here, so that they can go into the record if it is desired.

Mr. Ross. Very well, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. State, in a general way, the character of the flat cars that you purchased.

Mr. Ross. They are what might be called standard 40-ton wooden flat cars, the last lot.

Senator KITTREDGE. In what manner do they propose to dump the material?

Mr. Ross. From these flat cars?

Senator KITTREDGE. Yes.

Mr. Ross. They are going to use Lidgerwood unloaders and ballast plows-side and center ballast plows.

Senator KITTREDGE. Explain what they are.

Mr. Ross. They are very commonly used by railroads and by contractors. A Lidgerwood unloader is practically the same as a hoisting engine, with a drum connected with a cable which pulls these plows right along a string of flat cars and shoves the dirt off, either on both sides or on one side, according to which way they want it dumped. Mr. Stevens, when he first went to the Isthmus, or shortly after he first went to the Isthmus, on account of the sticky nature of the soil and the material that was being gotten out at that time, came to the conclusion that flat cars with Lidgerwood unloaders and ballast plows would probably dump the material, some of the material, at least, better than the dump cars, and it was on that account that he made the requisition for these 800 flat cars. Of course they can be used for any purpose. They are just the standard 40-ton flat car, similar to those that you see on the railroads all over the country.

Senator KITTREDGE. I suppose at the unloading place they construct a trestle or bridge onto which they run these flat cars and then unload them?

Mr. Ross. They may probably do so in some cases; yes, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. Will it not be necessary, in order to use these unloaders or flat cars with the unloaders, to have that sort of a structure?

Mr. Ross. It will not be necessary to have that sort of a structure any more than it would be with the dump cars. They can use them in almost any place where they could use the dump cars.

Senator KITTREDGE. What is the character of the structure that will be necessary in order to use these flat cars?

Mr. Ross. In a great many, in fact nearly all, cases it will not be necessary to have any structure at all. Such a structure would be needed as much in connection with the use of dump cars as with flat

cars.

Senator KITTREDGE. Where it is necessary to have a structure, what will be the nature of it?

Mr. Ross. They will build a trestle.

Senator KITTREDGE. And what is the character of the trestle?
Mr. Ross. Just wooden frame bents and ties.

Senator KITTREDGE. Will it not be necessary to construct a very substantial structure?

Mr. Ross. No, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. Is not the weight of the car and the strain. upon the trestle heavy where you use this sort of a flat car and plow? Mr. Rose. No, sir; not particularly so. A flat car and plow would not be as heavy, combined, as the locomotive that would have to handle them anyway. They are used very commonly all over the country by contractors and others. There are a great many more of them in use than there are dump cars.

Senator KITTREDGE. You say that a trestle will not be necessary in the ordinary conditions?

Mr. Ross. I do not think that a trestle will be used in very many

cases.

Senator KITTREDGE. On account of the character of the land?

Mr. Ross. On account of the character of the land they will probably be able to dump a great part of it without the use of a trestle. They can dump anywhere from these flat cars that they could from dump cars.

Senator KITTREDGE. The point that I am getting at is whether, in the use of this peculiar kind of dump car, you will not be compelled to have a stronger structure than you would with the other kind of dump cars?

Mr. Ross. No, sir; it makes no difference in that respect.

Senator KITTREDGE. Where are these dump cars of the character you have described manufactured?

Mr. Ross. These are not dump cars that I have been talking about. Senator KITTREDGE. I mean flat cars.

Mr. Ross. They are being built by the American Car and Foundry Company.

Senator KITTREDGE. Is that the only company that manufactures them?

Mr. Ross. No, sir; anybody making cars can make these flat cars. They are the simplest car, I suppose, that there is to make. A great many railroads build them.

Senator KITTREDGE. I understand about the flat car; but I mean the flat car with the attachment for dumping.

Mr. Ross. There is no attachment. That is entirely separate. We just buy the number of Lidgerwood unloaders and plows actually needed, as nearly all the railroads do. These ballast plows can be used on any flat cars. We do not have to have one for each car.

Senator KITTREDGE. Is there more than one plant in the country manufacturing these plows?

Mr. Ross. Well, as a matter of fact, I do not think there is.
Senator KITTREDGE. Where are they manufactured?

Mr. Ross. The Marion Steam Shovel Company makes them.
Senator KITTREDGE. Of Marion, Ind.?

Mr. Ross. Marion, Ohio. There are other people contemplating going into the business, I believe.

Senator KITTREDGE. How many bids did you in fact receive for this style of material?

Mr. Ross. For those ballast plows?

Senator KITTREDGE. Yes.

Mr. Ross. We only received one.

Senator KITTREDGE. And from this company?

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. Did you advertise?

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir; we advertised all over the United States. Senator KITTREDGE. And that was the only company that was manufacturing them at that time?

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. Do you know whether there is any other concern that has gone into the business since?

Mr. Ross. No; but the Bucyrus people told me they might arrange to build them. There is nothing patented about it, and it is a simple thing to make. The demand for them has not been very great, because the railroads do not have to have very many of them. We do not need very many of them.

Senator KITTREDGE. You have one attached to each train, do you not?

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir; we will have one attached to each train they are used on.

Senator KITTREDGE. How many trains do you expect to have in use after the work actively begins?

Mr. Ross. I do not know how many trains they will have in use with flat cars. As I recall it, we bought a total of about twelve of those ballast plows. So far Mr. Stevens has not asked for any more.

Senator KITTREDGE. Have you any knowledge of how many will be required when the work is actively prosecuted?

Mr. Ross. No, sir; I have not heard anything from him on that. Senator KITTREDGE. What is the cost of one of those implements? Mr. Ross. I think about $775 each, or something like that.

Senator KITTREDGE. In what manner did you advertise for the last order of locomotives?

Mr. Ross. We advertised in the Chicago and New York papers for them. There was not very much necessity for advertising. It was largely a formal matter in advertising for bids on those locomotives. Senator KITTREDGE. Why was there not any necessity of the character you mention?

Mr. Ross. Well, there was a necessity, of course. We advertised for them because it was a large item and it was necessary to do so to comply with the regulations.

Senator KITTREDGE. What did that item amount to?

Mr. Ross. It amounted to about $1,300,000.

Senator KITTREDGE. In what papers did you advertise?

Mr. Ross. It is shown in the statement I left the other day. I think in the New York Tribune, as I recollect it, or the Herald.

Senator KITTREDGE. In what other papers did you
Mr. Ross. The Chicago Tribune.

Senator KITTREDGE. And in any other town?

Mr. Ross. No, sir.

advertise?

Senator KITTREDGE. Just in Chicago and New York?

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir; I had already been in communication, and was at that time in correspondence with all the people that were likely to bid on these locomotives, so that they did not depend on seeing the advertisements in the newspapers at all.

Senator KITTREDGE. You advertised, then, in two newspapers?
Mr. Ross. Yes, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. And you had correspondence with other concerns manufacturing locomotives?

Mr. Ross. I had correspondence with all the concerns that do manufacture standard locomotives; yes.

Senator KITTREDGE. What concerns did you have correspondence with?

Mr. Ross. With the American Locomotive Company, the Baldwin Locomotive Works, the Rogers Locomotive Works, and the Lima Locomotive and Machine Company. I wrote them and called their attention to our advertisement.

Senator KITTREDGE. What is the date of that letter?

Mr. Ross. I have it here. It is September 12, 1905.

Senator KITTREDGE. What date did you advertise for the locomotives?

Mr. Ross. I think on the same day.

Senator KITTREDGE. When was the contract closed?

Mr. Ross. September 19.

Senator KITTREDGE. Show me the letter that you wrote to the Lima people.

Mr. Ross. Yes, sir. I wrote to their agents in New York. I knew who were their agents [handing letter to Senator Kittredge]. Senator KITTREDGE. I will ask you to put that in the record. Mr. Ross. Yes, sir.

WASHINGTON, September 12, 1905.

DEAR SIRS Referring to your letter of recent date concerning your desire to bid on locomotives, I send you herewith inquiry calling for bids on 120 locomotives, bids to be opened on 19th instant. I send these to you thinking that you may not have noticed our newspaper advertisement calling for these bids.

Senator KITTREDGE. You did not advertise thirty days for the locomotives, then?

Mr. Ross. No, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. Why not?

Mr. Ross. Well, for the reason that we wanted the delivery to cominence at an early date and in order to get the delivery wanted it was necessary to get the order placed promptly, and also for the reason that the names of the concerns who can build standard locomotives are very well known to all people who use locomotives in this country. You see, the American Locomotive Company a few years ago--it is