discretion given to the Secretary of Labor, if this is to be under the Department of Labor, to enable him to extend the time for payment when necessary, so that if a man can not pay it this year, or if he has been out of work for a whole year and can not pay the fee this year, the department could extend the time and let him pay it when he can do so.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you looked into the proposition far enough to satisfy yourself that it is within the constitutional power of Congress to assess a fee of this kind against an alien?

Secretary DAVIS. If it is to be uniform and universal registration, I am sure that we would be within our rights. Where the alien declares his intention to become a citizen of the United States, I think you can charge the fee, but where you undertake to charge a fee against those aliens who do not want to become citizens of the United States, there may be some question about it.

The CHAIRMAN. That is to say, the compulsory registration of aliens, if such compulsory registration is not a first step in the process of naturalizing alien, but applies to all of them, whether they want to become citizens or not would be questionable as to its constitutionality?

Secretary DAVIS. I do not think that there is any question at all about the right or constitutionality of having universal registration.

Mr. VAILE. The question you raise relates to the right of charging a universal fee?

Secretary DAVIS. Yes, sir. If a man declares his intention of becoming a citizen of this country, I think you can charge him with the fee, but there is some question whether you could make an alien pay the fee whether he wanted to become a citizen or not. You could force him to register, of course, but when it comes to forcing him to pay a fee, that is another question.

Mr. RAKER. That is, to pay the fee for educational purposes?

Secretary DAVIS. Yes. Under the passport laws and regulations of this country, you can insist upon the alien going to the passport office every year and having his passport re-viséd.

The CHAIRMAN. That only applies to those who have come to this country since we have had that passport system, but there are millions of aliens in the United States who arrived here many years ago without passports.

Secretary DAVIS. I think you could probably get those that are here in this country and that do not want to become citizens to register somewhere each year and to pay some sort of small fee for that. I do not think there is any question about that.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you given any thought to the question of the age at which you would require registration? That is to say, would you begin with the baby born in the United States and who is a citizen of the United States?

Secretary DAVIS. Yes; and I would include my own father and mother when I say that. I would say that when they came here my father would have registered and my mother would have registered, too, and they would then have included in that registration the minor children. I say that because I do not know of any greater help to the father and mother and the children than to enable them to say, "We are registered by the Government, and all of us must go to the meetings." That is especially true when they get old enough to understand its value. There are hundreds of children of aliens now in the jails and penitentiaries because their fathers and mothers had no control over them, and it would be a great thing to help the father and mother to bring those children up properly in our way of thinking and living rather than making them susceptible to the influence of the bad element that they come in contact with every day.

Mr. SABATH. You think that registration would save them from jail? Secretary DAVIS. I think it would help them. If you start a boy on the right road, I think it will be of help to him. You would be instructing him and giving him good companions rather than bad ones.

Mr. SABATH. But registration in itself would not do that?

Secretary DAVIS. No; but the officer could help. The registration authorities can give him some instruction.

Mr. RAKER. If the alien organizations themselves have a method of registration to enable them to know where certain aliens are, they certainly would have no objection to the Government having a registration system applying generally to all aliens.

Secretary DAVIS. No.

Mr. SABATH. If a proper system were created

Mr. RAKER (interposing). I said that at the beginning. We have been advised that a Jewish organization in New York, for instance, keeps a regis

tration of the Jewish people who come into this country, and they know where they are and what they are doing.

Mr. SABATH. That is different; and they do it in another way.
Mr. RAKER. No; it means that they keep in touch with them.

Secretary DAVIS. I know that the Welsh Society in this country advises the people to keep in touch with them, and they help them. They feel that it is their duty to help them.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe that the Welsh Society has performed very great and valuable service in aiding people. We have found some societies that were quite anxious themselves to carry on their registration and that felt that we would meet with great resistance if we undertook to force the registration of aliens. The thing that is bothering the committee, Mr. Secretary, is this: We can easily see that we could collect a fee from all aliens who arrive after the enactment of the law, because that would be one of the contingencies or conditions under which they would come into the country and remain in the country. But the problem is what can we do as to the 13,000,000 aliens now in the United States?

Secretary DAVIS. I do not think there is any question about the right to register those who are here.

The CHAIRMAN. Where would you start? Would you start with those of the age of 21 years?

Secretary DAVIS. I would register the families. I would register the minor children as well as the adults.

Mr. VAILE. And each child when born?

Secretary DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. CABLE. They would be American citizens, if born here.

Mr. VAILE. You would register them notwithstanding the fact that they are American citizens?

Secretary DAVIS. I do not think you could make it compulsory in the registration of American citizens.

The CHAIRMAN. Not unless we registered all of them. Would you make the fee of $25 apply to the head of the family or to each member of the family? Secretary DAVIS. I would have the fee apply to all the wage earners over 21 ́ years of age, and I would make it less for those under 21 years of age.

Mr. CABLE. What penalty, if any, would you provide for failure to register? Secretary DAVIS. Of course, you must have a penalty of some kind or a fine of some kind. I would make it a small fine, and I would leave it largely to the discretion of the officer who was carrying out the registration law, so that he could be lenient with them, if it seemed proper, and so that he could exercise his good judgment or discretion in the matter. I think you must trust the officer who is carrying out the law.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to have you think about this proposition a little bit: It is proposed in the bill under consideration to change the method of naturalization somewhat so that the annual registrttion shall be a part of the naturalization proceedings. If a man desires to become a naturalized citizen he takes that step voluntarily, and then is enabled to continue the naturalization process by registering annually, because under that plan he could not become a citizen without registration. Now, there has been some thought here on the part of some members of the committee that that would lead to the registration of those seeking citizenship, and that that process as it developed and became known would lead others to register and become imbued with the desire to receive citizenship, and that without arbitrary registration, or the attempt to register all aliens, we would soon, or within five or six years, develop a registration process in connection with naturalization. It has occurred to members of the committee that we would soon develop it to the point that the registered alien, having registered voluntarily, would, when he got into court, be asked by the judge if he was registered. To that he would reply, "Yes," and it would develop that it was for the purpose of acquiring citizenship. Then another alien would go into court and would be immediately asked whether he was registered, and his answer, we will suppose, would be "No." The court would ask, Why not?" and the answer might be, "I have not the money," or "I have not thought about it." The court would ask, "You are seeking to become a citizen of the United States?" to which he would answer, "Yes." The court would ask, "Why did you not register?" and he would be in bad right away.

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Secretary DAVIS. But why wait until he gets into that trouble? Let us go ahead and do it for him. I am not on this "watchful waiting" business, but I believe in going ahead and doing it. Why delay, when you can help these

thousands of men to become real true Americans and when we can teach them the principles of Americanism?

The CHAIRMAN. The next time you come before the committee, or when you can spare us a little time, we will want you to show us whether we can register every alien now in the United States above the age of 21 years and not register citizens of the United States.

Secretary DAVIS. I have gone into that, and I can answer it now. sure you can do it.

The CHAIRMAN. You are sure that we can?
Secretary DAVIS. Yes.

I am

The CHAIRMAN. I understood you to say a few minutes ago that there was some little question about that.

Secretary DAVIS. I was referring to the fee end of it. There is a question in my mind as to the man who does not want to become a citizen.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you given any thought to the question of what it would cost to register the aliens in the United States?

Secretary DAVIS. I think this fee I have suggested, would cover it.

The CHAIRMAN. But, if there is some doubt about the right to collect the fee

Secretary DAVIS (interposing). I think that that work could go with the other overhead. It would be a very small expense, inasmuch as you would already have established a registration office. There are not many in America that do not want to become citizens.

The CHAIRMAN. Statistics show that for 10 years prior to the entry of the United States into the war the annual naturalization of citizens was about 200,000 per year.

Secretary DAVIS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. It was quite a small number. Probably twice that number are taking out first papers and not completing the process.

Secretary DAVIS. You will find that a large number of them are afraid to go into court. They do not quite understand it. Then, you will find, too, that a large number of them can not get the two witnesses required.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean that the two witnesses can not find time to go to court with them?

Secretary DAVIS. No; they can not find the men to appear as witnesses for them. For instance, they come to New York, move to Indianapolis, and from there to Chicago. You will find them scattered all over the country, and it is very difficult for them to find the necessary witnesses. Now, you would cover every item of that when you required them to register. I would not be for this registration of aliens if I did not believe that we could help them or be of service to them in that way. I have lived among them all my life, and I expect to spend the remainder of my days among them.

Reference has been made to the soc eties that serve the alien people, and you can not measure the good that those societies are doing, or especially the one in New York that has been mentioned. I think they are doing a wonderful work, and I think that the men at the head of them are good American citizens-just as good as any of us. I think they are imbued with the proper spirit to try and help their people. I have discussed this matter with some officers of that society, and they have told me that they thought this was the sane way to get to the bottom of it. In one of the foreign-language papers they produced this matter in their own language and then alongside of it they produced it in the English language. It is being presented in every way, through the foreign-language papers, and through the press in general. I think that should be done, and not only that, but I think we need to do a lot of Americanization work among our own people. We need stirring up a little bit ourourselves.

Mr. SABATH. Do I understand that this organization you have referred to approves this registration plan?

Secretary DAVIS. They do not as an organization, but as individuals, discussing this matter with me, they do.

Mr. SABATH. They do not oppose it, or do not go on record in regard to it? They do not go on record as saying that they are opposed to it, or that they want to do it themselves?

Secretary DAVIS. No, sir; they have said that this registration of the aliens would be a mighty good thing for their people.

The CHAIRMAN. Compulsory registration?

Secretary DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. SABATH. I understood that somebody propounded the question to you in such a way as to leave the inference that those organizations were opposed to it.

Secretary DAVIS. No.

Mr. RAKER. I was trying to convey the idea that those organizations, or their leaders, and the men who were assisting them were in favor of a general registration plan.

Secretary DAVIS. Yes; and I agree with you.

Mr. VAILE. Do they go into details in explaining why they favor it?

Secretary DAVIS. It is because it will render a good service, and will help them to Americanize their own people.

Mr. KLECZKA. As I understand from your statement, it would do away with the producing of two witnesses in court at the time the application is filed. Secretary DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. KLECZKA. Which invariably entails a loss of about $10 or $15, or the wages of the applicant and the wages of the two witnesses. Then, it would eliminate the presence of those two witnesses at the final hearing, because this card would be proof of the continual residence of the alien in the United States. Secretary DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. KLECZKA. In the fee you suggest, what other items would be included? I received the impression that the fee was rather high or almost prohibitive. Secretary DAVIS. You would have to pay the teachers in those night schools and in those special schools. Of course, they would not do it without pay. Mr. KLECZKA. Every city that has night schools pays the teachers, does it not?

Secretary DAVIS. Then you would have the special lectures. You would have the special moving pictures and you would have the special stereopticon views or still pictures. You would work up a real Americanization organization about them. In other words, you would bring to them everything we have in the United States.

Mr. KLECZKA. Every community that is doing that work has its own schools and is doing it now without any expense or cost to the students or applicants. Secretary DAVIS. Mr. Crist tells me that it is wholly inadequate at the present

time.

The CHAIRMAN. It was developed from a very small beginning, made as a result of a paragraph attached to a bill that went out of this committee about 1917.

Mr. SABATH. It was a very small appropriation.

The CHAIRMAN. They got it going by the voluntary cooperation of the school systems of the States. Now, this is a pretty big plan to contemplate, with Federal control of the foreign-language sections or of the instruction in the alien sections of the public school systems. It is a very desirable plan, but it will take a lot of machinery.

Secretary DAVIS. I do not think it will take much machinery. I do not think there is a public school anywhere in the United States that would not join in and cooperate with us in doing this work.

Mr. RAKER. We would leave it with the State or local authorities to handle the schools, and all that we would have to do would be to help provide a little more assistance in them.

Secretary DAVIS. As I see it, summing this whole thing up, this will be of great service to the alien who wants to become a citizen, and at the same time it will enable us to clean the country up of those who do not want to be citizens.

The CHAIRMAN. How would you do that?

Secretary DAVIS. When you have this registration that could be done.
The CHAIRMAN. The penalty for nonregistration would be what?

Secretary DAVIS. I think you should have a small penalty. I do not know exactly what it should be.

The CHAIRMAN. You could not clean them up simply by a process of checking them up.

Secretary DAVIS. No, sir; but when you have a registration of aliens you will be able to find those undesirable aliens that you do not want in this country. Mr. SABATH. How will you be able to do that?

Secretary DAVIS. Because they would appear every three months before the registration officers, and the officers will know what is going on by checking them up and following them up.

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Mr. SABATH. We would be establishing a system of espionage. Secretary DAVIS. No; I would not be a party to any espionage system at all. I would not be a party to any such thing, but this is for helpful purposes. The CHAIRMAN. We will say here is an undesirable alien

Secretary DAVIS (interposing). You have undesirable aliens in the penitentiary to-day, and we have not money enough to go around and make a survey of them. You have them in the insane asylums and poorhouses, and we have them going over the country preaching the doctrine of hate and violence, and I would not wait a minute to send them back.

The CHAIRMAN. But registration alone will not take them back.

. Secretary DAVIS. But it would enable you to get into touch with them. You would know what were the alien's movements over the country. For instance, one time he will be in New York, the next time at Chicago, and then he will go from Chicago to Denver. You will see what his movements have been,

Mr. VAILE. Would this be a remedy, to have the failure to register at the times when he ought to register a ground for deportation, at the option of the Government?

Secretary DAVIS. You might do that. Of course it would be a penalty seldom imposed.

The CHAIRMAN. If a man registered once every three months, registering once at New York, the next time at Chicago, the next time at St. Louis, the next time at Denver, and the next time at San Francisco, and he is discovered to be during all this time a red agitator and bolshevik, what would you do?

Secretary DAVIS. You would proceed against him according to law and deport him.

The CHAIRMAN. You would turn over the card containing this information to the Department of Justice?

Secretary DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. Where can anyone, looking to the interest of the alien as well as to the interest of our Government, raise the question of this being espionage as against the man when we require our own citizens who exercise the right of franchise to register and when we keep a record of them?

Secretary DAVIS. I see no reason why the alien should complain.

Mr. SABATH. There is quite a difference, because we require the registration of our citizens for the purpose of identifying them when they go to cast their vote on election day, and for that purpose alone.

Mr. RAKER. But under that registration we can deprive a man of the right of an American citizen if he does not register.

Mr. VAILE. And the law requires registration for military service.

The CHAIRMAN. The Federal Government does not require anyone to register to vote, but that is a State matter.

Mr. VAILE. If we had a law requiring the registration of aliens, might it not involve some form of registration for citizens; because how would you know whether or not a man is an alien? The registration officer might say to me, "Have you registered?" and I would reply, "I do not have to register, because I am an American citizen." Now, how will I prove that fact if I have no certificate myself?

Mr. RAKER. You would be the kind of man that the Department of Labor would be looking for. If you were an alien, then you would have to register. Mr. VAILE. But suppose I am an American citizen?

Mr. RAKER. That would end it.

Mr. VAILE. But how would I prove it?

Mr. RAKER. You would prove your citizenship.

The CHAIRMAN. It is only the bootbblack who has been a citizen for about three years who would have that experience. The officer might step up to him and ask, "Are you registered?" to which he would reply, "No; I am an American citizen." The officer would say, "Show me"; and if he did not, the officer might immediately arrest him.

Mr. SABATH. That is the trouble; there might be some abuse of it.
Secretary DAVIS. Of course, you can abuse any law.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee, or practically all the members, are anxious to adopt this sort of plan if it can be made workable. I have talked with various big men connected with the Welsh Society and other societies that have had your plan before them, and they say that these aliens who have come from espionage countries think that they have come to a free country, and they might find themselves again under espionage. Would they not be afraid that this system might develop into something like that?