I am director of data processing at Montefiore Hospital in the Bronx, New York.

The data processing service at Montefiore plays a dual role in support of the hospital's function of delivering acute health care services to patients.

The service's current primary role is to provide administrative support services to the hospital. The service is also currently developing the capability to provide immediate medical information to doctors engaged in the treatment of patients.

At present, the service is also operating a mini-computer system which makes the results of blood tests immediately available to doctors on a 24-hour-day, seven-day-a-week basis.

This clinical service is manned around the clock by two computer operators. Operators are thus directly involved in the delivery of health care as part of the hospital team.

Computer projects are developed at the hospital by teams of from two to eight programmers. A programmer works a normal day shift and is on call on a 24-hour-a-day basis, seven days a week if problems arise. Computer operators work assigned shifts and have no continuing responsibilities after working hours.

The employment of Sabbath observant programmers and operators presents no undue difficulty to the hospital. Because programmers work in teams, it is only necessary to insure that no single team is comprised entirely of Sabbath observers.

The non-Sabbath observer in a given team can then be on emergency call on Friday evenings and Saturdays and the Sabbath observer on Saturday night and Sunday.

This causes no friction because Sunday is ordinarily preferred as time off over Saturday.

With respect to operators, accommodation is easily accomplished by assigning a Sabbath observing operator to a Monday through Friday shift.

Even on those weeks when a Sabbath observing operator may need to leave an hour or two early on Friday, no real problem is presented. Most hospital business functions are winding down as the weekend approaches; since there are always two operators on a shift, those few hours can usually be covered by a single non-Sabbath observing operator.

Alternatively, the operator from the next shift can be called in early. In my opinion the hospital can and does make reasonable accommodations to the needs of Sabbath observers and does so without sacrificing the quality or efficiency of its health care delivery function.

Sabbath observers are employed by the hospital to the hospital's and

the employee's mutual benefit. The hospital's positive and flexible attitude is the only prerequisite to making this system work.

I previously held employment as a computer programmer with National CSS, a time sharing company in Connecticut (from 1970 to 1973) and with Transworld Airlines (from 1966 to 1969).

At National CSS I was required to be available on call on a 24-houra-day, seven day a week basis. Four to six times a year I would be called for a phone consultation during the night between midnight and 6:00 A.M.

Only once in three years did the company attempt to call me on a Saturday, and since I was unavailable, I was covered by another employee without serious inconvenience or any loss to the company. Nevertheless, accommodation of my Sabbath observance depended on the individual attitude of my manager at that point in time. Each time a new manager was assigned the matter had to be fought anew, until the new manager learned that no disruption was occasioned by accommodation.

At TWA two parallel sectors of the data processing section were in operation with substantially identical time requirements. My manager took an openminded, accommodating attitude and ran his section with five Sabbath observers in a staff of 20.

The other manager found a rule in the company's policy and procedures manual which required management personnel to be on round the clock call. Programmers were management personnel and, therefore, used this rule to justify his refusal to hire any Sabbath observer. This is a clear illustration, under almost laboratory conditions, which demonstrates that the primary impediment to the hiring of Sabbath observers is an unjustified negative attitude on the part of management.

One other incident that I would like to mention, concerns a friend and neighbor of mine who attempted to get a job as a computer programmer for one of the world's largest retail department stores here in New York City. After his interview, the interviewer told him he would be offered the job. At that point, he mentioned he was a Sabbath observer. A few days later, he received a rejection letter from the company. He complained to the New York State Human Rights Commission and in response to the complaint, the company gave him various tests to justify their rejection. The Human Rights Commission then subpoenaed the records of the company and found that the only negative remark in the interviewer's box on the employment application form was the phrase, “Sabbath Observer." At that point, the company agreed to hire him, if he would withdraw the complaint. He did start working there and today, 7 years later, he is a program supervisor at that company

and generally recognized as one of the most knowledgeable in his specialty in New York City. He is also one of the most highly paid employees of that company. Obviously, then, the initial rejection was (1) unjustified, and (2) hidden from the applicant behind a smokescreen of subterfuge.

In conclusion, I would like to thank you for holding these meetings and for giving me the opportunity to participate.

Chair NORTON: Thank you very much.

Mr. BROWN: My name is Chaim Brown and I am the president of Three Star Programming and Systems. Our company supplies data processing consultation to some of the largest firms in the United States.

The company was started in 1969 by myself and today we employ 30 people. I would say a large percentage of them are Sabbath observers. I would like to preface that my comments and my experiences would be strictly dealing with employing Sabbath observers in New York City, in the field of data processing, and also vis-a-vis consultants, meaning these are temporary full-time people supplied to companies as opposed to full-time employees.

I feel sort of a devil's advocate here, because the companies have made in their effort in hiring Sabbath observers.

Just a comment that we deal, as I said, with some of the largest companies; some of them Pfizer pharmaceuticals, Dunn & Bradstreet, Chemical Bank, Citi Corp., Random House, Berkey Photo, Union Carbide, just to name a few.

In my experience with these companies, and I have dealt on the managerial levels, we have not experienced any discrimination against Sabbath observers.

The people that I have working at these clients at times are asked to make up for the time that they lose; very often they are not, because consultants are considered professionals and are responsible for their project and their deadline.

So that the amount of time that a person puts in is really not that important. I have also come in contact with many full-time employees at these companies who are also Sabbath observers, and the companies are extremely happy with the progress and are extremely happy with the work that they are doing.

I might digress from the statement that I have prepared here. A very interesting experience that I had with one of my largest clients, Pfizer Pharmaceuticals. At this point we have ten people working there as consultants and I, myself, back in 1965 had applied for a position as a programmer and was turned down because I was a Sabbath observer. And, as I said, today, we have ten people, all Sabbath observers,

working there. And another occasion, I might say, just to bring out the point which I think everybody is bringing out, that Sabbath observance is no hindrance, but I think I have found that many companies point this out as an asset. In other words dealing with religious or Orthodox people, be it Orthodox Jews or Orthodox of any other faith, they find them much more responsible at their job and many of the common plagues that we have today in dealing with employee problems: drinking problems, drugs and what have you, these are unheard of among observant religious people.

So that there is a preference for hiring these types of people from the contacts that I have had. Let me point out something of this regard. One of our clients, Chemical Bank, where I had three consultants working on the job, they took a liking to one of the people, to the work that he has been doing, incidently he is a Sabbath observer, and have asked me to give them permission to hire him on their permanent staff, to which I have consented. And today he is working downtown at Chemical Bank as a full-time employee.

So in conclusion let me say that I think there definitely has been made great strides and great progress has been made in hiring Sabbath observers, and I think this should be an indication to all other companies that being a Sabbath observer would not be a hindrance, but on the contrary, I think that they work out in the long run much better than some of the other employees.

I really want to thank the members of the Commission for inviting me here today. Thank you.

Chair NORTON: Commissioner Leach.

Commissioner LEACH: There is one thread that seems to run through all of your testimony and that is that with the growth in the demand, business seems to have been more willing to accommodate to the religious requirements of employees who have this type of specialty. I would suspect that if that were the case in all businesses it would not be so much of a problem.

Mr. WEISS: I found in my experience as director of data processing that certain senior positions have been left vacant for six to eight months while we are looking for the right candidate.

Certainly, if that is the experience of other companies, they would be willing to make some accommodations. The danger exists that if the shortage of supply would cease the accommodation would also cease.

Mr. MIRSKY: I think that that particular condition has to be accounted for. 1970-1974 were not good periods for programmers. Right now Sabbath observing trainees still have difficulty, as do all trainees not just Sabbath observers, all trainees into the field, because it is a good field right now. But I don't think we should let it slide; I think that all

these safeguards that are being set up for other areas must be set up here.

Commissioner LEACH: Mr. Weiss, you in your statement noted a parallel experience where on the one hand there appeared to be a rather sensitive program manager and the other one was characterized as a by-the-book manager, and you did note that the accommodations made varied; on the one hand there was nothing, and on the other hand there was a great effort made to accommodate.

Do you have any knowledge about what the costs to the company under either system; in other words, was it more costly for that company to go by the book, rather than it was to accommodate?

Mr. WEISS: I think certainly so. I think there were many qualified applicants that could have been hired, they were not hired because this manager chose to go by the book.

In quality of staff I think my department had a better quality of staff overall, whether it was the Sabbath observants or not, because the manager was willing to accommodate people coming to work in dungarees or working late hours, while this manager that went by the book was more impressed with doing desk checks ten minutes after eight o'clock in the morning, rather than how much work had been accomplished over the course of the week.

Chair NORTON: Commissioner Walsh?

Commissioner WALSH: I did have one question in regard to this health care situation that keeps coming up. You had indicated that you are in an area where everyone must be on call 24 hours a day. It is considered one that requires around the clock manning, seven days a week and then there's been no problem in accommodation.

I wondered, are you aware of any other areas in your hospital where they are making accommodation of any type at all? Or would you have an opportunity to be aware of any?

Mr. WEISS: I am not aware one way or the other.

Chair NORTON: Mr. Brown, I noted that you testified as to very substantial progress within recent years. I wondered if you agreed with Mr. Weiss and Mr. Mirsky that these changes are related mostly to demand and supply or whether you have seen any evidence of change in attitudes, as well?

Mr. BROWN: I would say that the changes really are twofold. One is the supply and demand, but I think the other also has to do with the positive experience that these companies have had with Sabbath observant employees.

My comment, and I guess we are all in the field of advising, but I always tell every Sabbath observant applicant that he is really a one