notice, making this accommodation is not a serious problem or burden on the company.

As an example, when two Sabbath observing employees were assigned to observe inventory during the Succoth holiday last fall, their supervisor had no difficulty in arranging a substitute assignment when given two weeks notice of this conflict.

The company expects that time taken for religious observance will be made up by evening or Sunday work, as is all time taken off for personal

reasons.

I will be happy to answer any questions. Thank you.

Commissioner LEACH: Arthur Young & Company, does it have-I asked the representatives of Con Edison this, does it spell out the policy here in any written form, directive form or, this is a national concern, Arthur Young, and it's perhaps one of the largest firms of this scope? Mr. GALITZNER: We do have written and public policy to the extent that it indicates that employees are entitled to three holidays of their choice for religious reasons without having to make up time or being penalized pay-wise and to the extent that an individual takes additional days or personal leave, he is just expected to make it up or, as you said, vacation time beyond the three days.

Commissioner LEACH: How does your company interface with what Mr. Bransdorfer here is seeking to do in terms of pre-employment counselling, I suppose. Do you have any relationship at all or is it only by coincidence that you appear here together?

Mr. GALITZNER: Well I think it is coincidence that we appear here together. I find consistency in his attitude and my approach. As I indicate I believe that the best approach is the frank approach from the start, and I have found on occasion, not with Arthur Young, but with other acquaintances of mine where they have gone for interviews and incurred similar situations where either they have been turned off when they notify the employer that they are Sabbath observers, or in the other case where an individual does not notify the employer until after being hired and then incurs a conflict. It has been my approach and instinct to advise people who inquire that they be frank at the start. And I have on numerous occasions at Arthur Young that being frank up front prevents or obviates any conflict down the road and it has not been a problem.

Just to state one more thing; this has been my policy since I started, which was nine years ago and at that time I was in the Arthur Young New York office. I am now with the Metropolitan office. Both offices are consistent in that approach.

Mr. BRANSDORFER: To go further out a little bit, all of the big eight, I can say without doubt, and of the other major firms, in New York a

substantial part of them all have Sabbath observant Jews on their staff, or have had at one point in time, and have never, in a general way have never created a major problem.

Some of the smaller firms you have problems, and then after that it comes down to an individualistic basis.

Commissioner WALSH: My question, I think, itself not so much to the accounting industry per se, but practices of your clients. I've been in industry and, of course, we went through the inventory and that type of thing. I wondered if you had any feeling about the problems that your clients, particularly those who are involved in production, where production lines must continue as an automatic process, and most specifically I am interested in any comments Mr. Galitzner might have, because my recollection is that several years ago Arthur Young was giving seminars for their clients on EEO practices, and as part of the service was going to, in addition to being able to provide for their clients an EEO audit.

I wondered if you were familiar with this aspect, and in the EEO audit wouldn't this area of religious accommodation come up? And wouldn't you have any feeling about what those audits may show?

Mr. GALITZNER: Unfortunately I am not familar with the audits. themselves, although I am aware of the fact that we do that type of service. So I can't really tell you what those audits have reflected. So far as clients are concerned, I know of several clients who do employ Sabbath observers and who have not had problems, one is the case of a food manufacturing company where the controller is a Sabbath ob

server.

Another situation is in the case of a cable TV company, where the Sabbath observer and, I believe, at least two of his departments (?) are Sabbath observers. He is Director of Taxes, and if I could take longer I could think of a few more. I don't know of any particular hiring problems that any of our clients have incurred in that area.

Commissioner WALSH: Then from your knowledge, you cannot pinpoint any specific problems that you feel might make accommodation more difficult in some industries, rather than others?

Mr. GALITZNER: No.

Commissioner LEACH: All right. Thank you very much.

Commissioner LEACH: Mr. Mirsky, Mr. Brown and Mr. Weiss. Having just heard from the Accounting Community about some of the efforts that have been made with regard to accountants, we are pleased to have representatives from the data processing computer field.

Mr. MIRSKY: My name is Aaron Mirsky. I am the president of a Sabbath observing data organization that was formed in about 1974. We have roughly about 250 people which we communicate with, and

the approach that I want to take today is something more of a personal type of approach of what led me to start up some sort of organization of this type, and I want to just walk it through chronologically and give you some sort of feel for what I've gone through.

You have to remember, of course, that when I did go to job interviews I do not go with the Yarmulke. That meant I got further down the line than possibly some of my Hasidic compatriots who maybe were stopped right at the door. And so the expense of discrimination, I felt, was felt more by somebody in my shoes who would not work on Saturday and that is my point. (I'll read my statement first.) One of the favorable happenings today in the field of data processing is that programmers and systems analysts are in demand.

This is good for everyone in the field with enough experience to be worth something in the market. Discrimination in employment against Sabbath observers would appear to be at a low.

Part of the credit for this belongs to the work of this Commission and part belongs to the National Jewish Committee on Law and Public Affairs who helped mold positive legislation to the benefit of Sabbath observers, and part belongs to the generally favorable trend of the employment market.

This was not always the case. It has been my personal experience when first pursuing a trainee position that the going was rough. On one occasion, when being favorably considered for employment after a long interview, where even the costs of my computer education were being considered for reimbursement, upon revealing my Sabbath observance, this goes back to 1967, I found myself without a job offer.

In a second instance with three years programming experience during a job interview I was told with enthusiasm by the director in charge that he wanted me to meet the person I would be working for.

As it turned out the person was out to lunch and would be back in 20 minutes, whereupon, I was asked not to leave and await his return. During the wait I mentioned that I was a Sabbath observer. The director nodded and suggested within five minutes that it was getting late and perhaps it would be best if he would contact me and arrange for an appointment at a later time, which never happened.

This took place in 1970, a difficult time for programmers who were interested in a job change.

In the same year after a positive interview with the director of another computer center, I was informed by the employment agency that sent me that the prospects were excellent.

A day later I was told to forget the whole thing. I had revealed that I was a Sabbath observer. I told the agent that I cannot accept that and

would like to meet with the director one more time to ascertain what had occurred.

The third business day following the interview I was told that the job was mine if I wanted it, and the director wanted to have lunch with me.

We went to one of the Kosher restaurants that I picked. I met him and we ultimately came to an agreement. In discussing the exchange of vacation days for religious holidays I found the director to be unusually lenient and beneficent.

He said that I should take whatever religious holidays I needed without any reduction in my vacation time. The whole situation was puzzling until I found out what really happened.

After telling the employment agency he was interested in hiring me, the director held a staff meeting where the prospects of hiring me were discussed.

The fact that I required a strange formula of days off was something previously unknown to him and it caused laughter at the meeting and ultimately the decision not to hire me followed. Basically this is due to the unfamiliarity with the problems of the Sabbath observer.

One of the staff members, a former inmate at Auschwitz, who was not an Orthodox Jew, a fellow named Eugene Muller, privately approached the director and advised him that the basis for not hiring me was not fair.

He advised the director that if he should persist in his refusal to hire me, he would complain to the Chairman of the Board who was Jewish. It was at this time that the final decision was made to hire me. Parenthetically, nine months after I was hired, a second Sabbath observer was hired. Apparently they were not unhappy with my performance, and he turned out to be the most productive member of the programming staff that the company ever had.

It was about three years later that I decided to start a data processing association for Sabbath observers named Acduth. It means "unity". One of the essential features of this association is to share technical expertise with one another to strengthen the technical potential of our members within their particular jobs.

It also serves as a vehicle for helping to place our members in better jobs. We have been successful.

The bias against Sabbath observers that I have encountered has been due to either ignorance on the part of the employer as to what a Sabbath observer is and, therefore, is reluctant to get involved or is adverse to hiring Sabbath observers because he is afraid of the effect it may have on his data processing function without really giving it a chance.

The fact is, the Sabbath observer generally overcompensates for any time he is required to take off due to religious observance.

It is at this point that strong legislation safeguarding the rights of Sabbath observers becomes important, and fair administration of these laws becomes necessary.

In my experience with Acduth, I found covert discrimination and even though reasons given for dismissal were not related to one's Sabbath observance, it was apparent that the cause for dismissal was for religious observance.

One instance in particular, where a new employee took four days off for Passover, those days occurred in the middle of the week, was asked to leave immediately after the holidays, due to "poor performance”. We were fortunately successful in placing her in another job where she has been employed for the past two years.

For the record there are many organizations presently hiring Sabbath observers and I would like to mention some of them: IBM, City Corp., Chase Manhattan Bank, A T & T, S. D. Leidesdorf, E. F. Hutton, Time Life, Bankers Trust, Manufacturers Hanover, Morgan Guarantee, Con Edison, NBC, ABC, Monchik & Weber, New York Life Insurance Company, ITT, Equitable Life Assurance Company, Merril Lynch, Computer Science Corp., J. C. Penney, Belding Heminway Corp., Federal Reserve Bank, Computer Horizons Corp. and many others. At the present time, the data processing professional's outlook is generally good, but that does not mean that we should be shortsighted to the point that the rights of Sabbath observers in this area should not be protected.

For example, the position of prospective trainees who are Sabbath observers has not improved as there is an abundance of people looking to break into the field.

From what I know about the TWA versus Hardison case, where the seniority system was allowed to take precedence over the religious obligations of a member of the World Wide Church of God, it opens the door not only to the nonhiring of Sabbath observers, but also the firing of those on staff.

It is, therefore, necessary that teeth be put into the law which has currently been knocked out by the courts.

If this is not done, the so-called equal opportunity so often espoused as a virtue will be defeated as far as Sabbath observers are concerned. Individual differences in terms of religious commitment must be recognized and protected, if our society is to remain free.

I would be happy to answer any questions that you may have. Commissioner LEACH: I would suggest, perhaps, that we first hear from the three of you.

Mr. WEISS: My name is Henry Weiss and I am an Orthodox Jew and