geographic changes; and, as I add them up roughly, it seems to me to come to more than 43 per cent of the 164,000.

Mr. BOGGS. I took it directly from the census figures from which the quotas were derived, rather than from the quotas themselves. Senator REED. The question was as to the quotas.

Mr. BOGGS. Well, you see the geographic adjustments are made to the statistics relating to the pre-war countries, and those which you are looking at are the quotas relating to the postwar countries.

Senator REED. But the question was directed to the postwar quotas. What proportion of the quotas are affected by those changes in geography? I think you will find it runs about 60 per cent. The question runs that way.

Mr. BOGGS. I presume that is true.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor Hill, in computing the national origins, did you take into consideration the differential of fecundity?

Doctor HILL. In making that division between the original native stock and the immigrant stock or what I rather prefer to call the "colonial stock" and "postcolonial stock," the process which we followed did take care of any difference that there may have been in fecundity.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you explain now in some detail what that is and what the differential was?

Doctor HILL. We did not determine the differential, but we used figures that disposed of it. The process was such a complicated one, involving the use of age statistics, that I really could not explain it briefly. But it did not involve the question of differential fecundity. We started with the percentage of the population that was born of native parents and the percentage that was born of foreign parents as given by age groups in the censuses in 1890, 1900, 1910, and 1920, and we did not make any assumptions as to birth rates or relative fecundity. We did not have to.

The CHAIRMAN. If you did not determine that, how did you take it into consideration in reaching your figures?

Doctor HILL. I might answer that question in this way: Suppose you knew or could ascertain in some way by using census figures and without applying birth rates or death rates how many descendants two or more classes had at the present time, you would not need to work out the difference in fecundity. You could do it if you wanted to as a matter of information. But if you were interested only in how many descendants one class had and how many the other class had, and had data which enabled you to determine that without making any assumptions as to birth rates-the question of differential fecundity would not arise.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I am trying to ascertain-how this data arose and whether it is a part of the computations you figured in your report of 1928?

Doctor HILL. We did not have to consider it.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not have to consider it?
Doctor HILL. NO.

Senator REED. It was automatically taken care of?

Doctor HILL. It was automatically taken care of; yes. I think it is only fair to add that when it came to determining the different national stocks-the German, Irish, English, and so forth-we did

not make any allowance for the difference in fecundity. But in the main division into the original native or colonial stock and the postcolonial stock, that matter of fecundity, as Senator Reed says, was automatically taken care of. So there the question does not arise.

But the colonial stock, having been once determined, had to be further divided according to nationality-so much English, so much Irish-and that was also the case as regards postcolonial stock, when the total had been determined it had to be further divided by nationalities.

Now, in determining the nationalities, in determining what proportion of the total colonial and of the total postcolonial stock was German and what proportion was English, and so forth, we did not make any allowance for differential fecundity. We went on the assumption that the natural increase, in the long run, was the same or practically the same for these different national stocks.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions any member of the committee desires to ask?

Senator REED. I have no other questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything you would like to say, Doctor, to the committee?

Doctor HILL. I would like to say in this connection that I do not believe that that introduces any serious element of error.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, what introduces so large an element? Doctor HILL. The assumption that we made that the natural increase of these various national stocks, German, English, and Irish, and so on, was the same.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your assumption?

Doctor HILL. That is the assumption which we made. We assumed that the natural increase was the same. We assumed that the Irish stock increased the same as the German, that the German stock increased the same as the English, that is at the same rate. Most people would say that that is not in accordance with the facts. They would say, "Why, look at the French Canadians, look at the Irish, and look at the Germans. How much more rapidly they breed than the English stock does." There is a decided difference at the present time for about one generation, and then, when you get to the second generation, the difference has largely disappeared.

Senator COPELAND. Have they become Americanized?

Doctor HILL. When you get to the third generation, I do not believe you will find any difference in the natural increase, they have become Americanized in that respect. There are some figures that indicate that. We have the figures that show that the second generation of any foreign stock does not have as many children as the first generation. So I would say that there is no material error in the assumption of equal rates of increase.

Senator COPELAND. That is true of the old New England families? Doctor HILL. Eminently true. The old New England families increased in the early days just about up to the limit, I think you might say that they had just about as many children as it was physically possible for them to have. Of course, a great many of the children died in infancy or childhood, but enough of them lived to result in very rapid increase of population through that period. The CHAIRMAN. That is all, Doctor. Mr. White.

STATEMENT OF HON. ROBE CARL WHITE, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

The CHAIRMAN. Secretary White, you know the subject matter under discussion. Can you enlighten the committee in respect to it? Assistant Secretary WHITE. I do not know that I can add much to what has been said. The Department of Labor has taken about the position that the Department of State has taken, as outlined by Mr. Carr. Our attitude is one of watchful waiting. We feel that we are administering the present law in a satisfactory manner, and we believe we can administer the national-origins plan if it is put into effect.

Senator COPELAND. In that connection, are you having less and less trouble in administering the present law?

Assistant Secretary WHITE. Yes; the quotas as allotted, are generally accepted by the various nationalities at the present time. I do not know as it will help you, but in my judgment any other quota announced by our Government would be equally as well accepted. Senator COPELAND. After education of the public? Assistant Secretary WHITE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. It would be unfortunate to undertake a change of the quotas and then repeal the change within a brief period, would it not?

Assistant Secretary WHITE. I do not know as I can answer that question, Mr. Chairman. We never know what a change will entail, and I can not at this time

The CHAIRMAN. I was not speaking of the change. If a change were made, there would be, as you say, adjustment to it within a very few years by all the nations of the earth, I assume. But if a change were made, and then immediately that change were revoked, annulled, and repealed, it would be an unfortunate thing to do, would it not? Assistant Secretary WHITE. It would cause some disturbance in administration of the law.

Senator HARRIS. If the national origins was put into effect it would not interfere with those who applied to come in under the quota of the different countries-it would not change their status? Senator REED. The "waiting list" would remain as it is? Senator HARRIS. The waiting list would remain the same? Assistant Secretary WHITE. I understand it would remain the

same.

Senator COPELAND. Mr. White, this is true, as you have already stated, that it would take some time to adjust the country to the 1890 census plan, as a matter of education. I have no doubt your experience has been the same as my own in New York. Now, they have adjusted themselves to it, and I do not see anything of them. But if you had a new system, if you had a new quota, a new arrangement, which was not yet understood by the people, would you not have this same sort of unhappiness and restlessness as we had when we adopted the 1890 plan?

Assistant Secretary WHITE. When the 1924 act was put into effect there was no noticeable disturbance or questioning of the quota, from our department's standpoint. I doubt seriously if we would notice anything particularly if the national-origins plan is put into effect.

We look upon this question as a scientific and historical one, to be left primarily to the scientists and to the legislative bodies.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions desired to be asked, Mr. White?

Senator REED. I have no questions.

The CHAIRMAN. The reason I hurried this along, gentlemen, is that I want to determine what we can in reference to this resolution this morning.

Senator COPELAND. May I remind you that we have no calendar this morning? Unanimous consent is in effect. So, if we take a little more time it will not interfere.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hull is here and Doctor Hill is here. If you wanted to go into detail, it is up to you gentlemen. What does the committee wish?

Senator COPELAND. Mr. Hull is here. Would he add something to what has been stated?

Senator REED. I think we ought to give Mr. Hull an opportunity. STATEMENT OF HON. HARRY E. HULL, COMMISSIONER GENERAL OF IMMIGRATION, DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

The CHAIRMAN. Would you give, for the purposes of the record, your official station?

Commissioner HULL. Commissioner General of Immigration. The CHAIRMAN. Can you add to what has been said here concerning the national-origins provision, the matter under discussion? Commissioner HULL. Very little. I might say, personally, that I rather dread a change in the quota law. The administration of the law, of course, falls upon the Bureau of Immigration, which is in the Department of Labor, and so any change entails some work on the bureau, and some confusion. We are a very small organization, with a tremendous and a very important job to administer.

I do not know that there is anything further than that.

The CHAIRMAN. In your opinion, would it be something of a calamity to put in operation this particular provision of the law and then repeal it within a very brief period?

Commissioner HULL. I think so; very definitely.

Senator REED. You have seen nothing to lead you to think it was going to be repealed, have you, Mr. Hull?

Commissioner HULL. I do not know.

Senator REED. That is speculation, of course; it is not fair to ask that.

Senator COPELAND. We are repealing the present law.

Senator REED. We are not going, as I understand it, to let the present law

Commissioner HULL. If I read the President elect's statement, it might lead to that conclusion.

The CHAIRMAN. You say in a letter?

Commissioner HULL. As I understand it, in his speech of accept

ance.

The CHAIRMAN. You have known of no letter or anything he has said in writing?

Commissioner HULL. No; that was in his speech of acceptance, if I remember correctly.

Senator REED. Do you believe in the restriction of immigration, Mr. Hull?

Commissioner HULL. Absolutely.

Senator REED. Do you think in the long run it is more apt to be a permanent, undisturbed policy if the quotas into which our immigration is divided, are undiscriminating?

Commissioner HULL. I am unable to conceive a quota law enacted with any regard to the elements comprising our population and the numbers comprising those elements, respectively, that would not in actual practice be regarded by those adversely affected as discriminatory.

Senator REED. If Congress has done its best to make it undiscriminatory, such a law is more likely to stand and to endure than one that is obviously discriminatory, is it not?

Commissioner HULL. Certainly, if it is fully considered by Con

gress.

Senator REED. At the present time the Germans have about one-third of the quota, have they not-51,000 out of 164,000?

Commissioner HULL. They have 51,000 of 164,500.

Senator REED. And the German element in the American population does not constitute anything like that proportion, does it?

Commissioner HULL. I suppose if it did the census said so; I do not.

know.

Senator REED. That proportion of the foreign-born in 1890; yes. But you do not understand that it constitutes that proportion of the whole population, do you?

Commissioner HULL. No. As I understand it, the quota law at present is based on the foreign population entirely.

Senator REED. Yes.

Commissioner HULL. On the theory, of course, that we are not discriminating. But it does, of course.

Senator REED. It does discriminate against native-born, because it excludes them entirely?

Commissioner HULL. Yes, in one way. In another way, no.
The CHAIRMAN. What native-born?

Senator REED. People born in America.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not making an immigration law with reference to people who live in America. Get to your basic idea.

Senator REED. I think the people born in America have as much right to be considered as an unnaturalized alien.

The CHAIRMAN. Indefinitely more. But that is not the point, if you want to discuss that thing. That is not the thing that is involved here at all.

Senator COPELAND. With great tact and common sense you have been applying this law. If you were to have a new law, without any education of the public as to its significance and its meaning and its justice, if it is just, would you not have more disturbances than you would to go along with this law under you until we have had time to educate the public as to what it means?

Commissioner HULL. Unquestionably, Senator, you would have some confusion and some criticism. The quota as it is administered at the present time is, of course, a tragic thing in the lives of hundreds of thousands of human beings. They are theoretically standing in.