NATIONAL ORIGINS PROVISION OF IMMIGRATION LAW MONDAY, FEBRUARY 4, 1929 UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION, The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., in the room of the Committee on Military Affairs, Capitol, Senator Hiram W. Johnson presiding. Present: Senators Johnson (chairman), Keyes, Reed, Nye, Gould, King, Harris, Copeland, Blease, and Stephens. Present also: Representatives Johnson (chairman of the Committee on Immigration and Naturalization of the House of Representatives) and Jenkins. (The committee thereupon proceeded to the consideration of S. J. Res. 192, which is here printed in full as follows:) [S. J. Res. 192, Seventieth Congress, second session] JOINT RESOLUTION To amend subdivisions (b) and (e) of section 11 of the immigration act of 1924, as amended Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That subdivisions (b) and (e) of section 11 of the immigration act of 1924, as amended, are amended by striking out the figures "1928" and inserting in lieu thereof the figures "1930." The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, there is a quorum of the committee present and the committee will please come to order. We have met this morning to hear certain testimony of representatives of various departments in reference to the national-origins provision of the immigration law, the particular matter pending before us being the resolution of Senator Nye postponing the proclamation of the President for one year. I will call Secretary Carr, of the State Department. STATEMENT OF HON. WILBUR J. CARR, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF STATE The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Carr, we have under consideration the resolution of Senator Nye postponing for one year the proclamation of the President, to be made in accordance with the immigration law relating to the national-origins provision. The committee is anxious to be informed in regard to the view of your department respecting that provision and would welcome any suggestions you have to make in respect to the pending legislation or the provision itself. Would you proceed, therefore, in your own fashion and tell us your views and the views of the Department of State? 1 Assistant Secretary CARR. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I do not believe the Department of State has any views on that question. What I mean by that is that we understand that the experts who have been engaged upon preparing the quotas under the so-called national-origins provision prepared one tentative report, which was finally transmitted to Congress. Last year they prepared another report, which we regard as a final report that is, final up to that date-which was also transmitted to the Senate pursuant to a resolution of the Senate. Now, they are at work on another report to bring their results up to date on the basis of whatever new data they have discovered meanwhile, for the information of the President and the Congress, if it desires that information. I feel, and I think it is the feeling of the department, that the board of experts have obtained about all the information that they are able to obtain and have done about all the work they are capable of doing to perfect these quotas as far as they can under existing law. I do not think we have any feeling as to whether you should postpone the taking effect of this law or not; we think that is rather a matter for Congress, in its wisdom, to determine. The CHAIRMAN. In your opinion, is there sufficient information before the Congress at the present time to put the law into effect; I mean with accuracy and definiteness in the mode we like to have in respect of the administration of the law? Assistant Secretary CARR. I have not gone into that matter, Senator, the matter of sufficiency of the information, because we regard that as rather a scientific question for the determination of these scientists who are at work on the quotas. Doctor Hill, of the Department of Commerce, has been chairman of the committee that has worked on that matter, and I think all of us are prepared to say that we have absolute confidence in him and his colleagues, and are prepared to take their statement as to the accuracy of their conclusions and the sufficiency of the information upon which those conclusions have been reached. The three Secretaries-the Secretaries of State, Commerce, and Labor-have in the past felt that they did not want to put themselves in the position of saying that the formula which Congress laid down for the determination of these quotas was a good formula or a bad one. I think they want to remain noncommital on that question. But I do not think any of them undertakes to controvert or disapprove the processes which this board of experts has employed. Senator NYE. Do they undertake to pass upon the efficiency of the basis which has been finally arrived at? Assistant Secretary CARR. I think they have all of them felt unconvinced that the formula in the law was a workable formula. I do not pretend to pass upon that at all myself; I do not know, frankly. I think I would have entire confidence in whatever Doctor Hill, Mr. Boggs, and those gentlemen have to say about that-confidence in their integrity and confidence in their scientific knowledge. Senator REED. You do feel they have about exhausted all research that is possible for them? Assistant Secretary CARR. I have not talked to Doctor Hill, but I have talked to Mr. Boggs, of our own department, and I feel that they have gone just about as far as they are capable of going; they have utilized all of the resources I think at their command. I do not believe from what I have learned of them, if I understand them correctly, that they will have much change to suggest over the quotas as they were submitted last year. Senator REED. So that from the standpoint of increased accuracy there would be no advantage in postponement for another year? Assistant Secretary CARR. That would be my impression; but I think you can get that more accurately from them. Senator REED. Is Mr. Boggs here? Assistant Secretary CARR. Yes; Mr. Boggs is here. Senator REED. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we hear from him, then. The CHAIRMAN. Very well. I would suggest, Mr. Secretary, that you wait a moment and we will hear from Mr. Boggs. Assistant Secretary CARR. Yes, sir. STATEMENT OF SAMUEL W. BOGGS, GEOGRAPHER, DEPARTMENT OF STATE The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Boggs, would you state your name, please, and your official station, so that the reporter may have it? Mr. BOGGS. Samuel W. Boggs, geographer of the Department of State. The CHAIRMAN. You have been engaged in that capacity how long, Mr. Boggs? Mr. BOGGS. Since October 1, 1924. The CHAIRMAN. Have you any data with you in respect of the provision of the immigration law relating to national quotas? Mr. BOGGS. Yes, sir. Senator HARRIS. May I ask what experience you have had in this line before going with the State Department? Mr. BOGGS. My work has been principally that of map compilation and geographical research with various publishing firms in New York. For the last three years before coming to the Department of State I was in charge of the editorial and revision work on the maps of a world atlas, the maps having been lithographed and printed abroad. I have been concerned principally with the geography of foreign countries for a period of 10 years or more. Senator HARRIS. During that time you have used census reports a good deal, I suppose? Mr. BOGGS. Particularly in the last four years, yes. Senator HARRIS. You found them accurate, according to your idea? Mr. BOGGS. The United States Census reports? Senator HARRIS. Yes. Mr. BOGGS. I have had no reason to doubt them, sir. Senator NYE. That is, as to the accuracy of all census figures dating from the beginning of the census? Mr. BOGGS. I would rather let Doctor Hill pass on that. Senator HARRIS. I did not mean to go so far; I meant on this particular subject. Mr. BOGGS. They seemed entirely consistent, so far as I have had occasion to use them. Senator HARRIS. That is what I wanted to know. Thank you. Senator REED. You are also secretary of the quota board, are you not? Mr. Boggs. Yes, sir. Senator REED. That is the board created by the immigration law for the ascertainment of these quotas? Mr. BOGGS. Yes, sir; the committee of six. Senator REED. Have you been secretary of that board constantly since its organization? Mr. BOGGS. Since its active work was begun on the national-origins quotas about three years ago. Senator REED. Mr. Boggs, do you consider the national-origins methods and the 1890 foreign-born method so that you are able to make a comparison between the two of them from the standpoint of accuracy? Mr. BOGGS. I would not want to say anything that would discredit the present quota system in itself. But I have had to study the present quotas in order to gather such information as they had utilized, and to learn anything I could from their processes, in order to get a good start on the work of determining the national-origin quotas. The national-origins quotas have, as we have used them, four separate factors: First, the immigration, that is, the foreign-born, reported in the 1920 census in the terms of postwar geography; second, the children of foreign-born who are reported interms of prewar geography; that is, the countries from which their immigrant parents came; and then, for statistical convenience and practical necessity, as I think Doctor Hill has previously explained, we have utilized figures concerning, third, the colonial stock, and fourth, the postcolonial stock other than the foreign born and the children of foreign born. So that we have four streams. The immigrants, and children of foreign-born immigrantsSenator COPELAND. Pardon me just a moment. Those four streams represent the colonial stock and the immigrants? Mr. BOGGS. The postcolonial stock, which we have also called the "immigrant stock," comprises what we call the grandchildren and later generations of postcolonial stock, the children of foreign born, and the foreign born themselves. That is simply for statistical convenience. Senator REED. Take the first of those streams, the foreign born, is there any element of uncertainty in that? Mr. BOGGS. There is practically none, because it is reported in terms of post-war geography and it is in itself, of course, much more usable than are the 1890 foreign-born statistics in determining the present quotas, because it is in terms of post-war geography, whereas the 1890 foreign-born data have to have a good many adjustments made because of the geographic changes. The CHAIRMAN. The second of the sources that you used, how is it as to accuracy? Mr. BOGGS. The children of the foreign-born are reported, as I say, in terms of pre-war geography, as of necessity, because they could not tell the countries, in terms of post-war geography, from which their parents came; many would not know of the geographical changes in Europe. But we have to use with that statistical table the statistics of mother tongue for the 1920 and the 1910 censuses; and, of course, that subdivides the statistics for each country in terms of the number of each mother tongue from that country, and gives us a picture not simply of the foreign-born themselves, which were also reported, but reflects really the immigration of a considerable period, the period in which their immigrant fathers came to this country. Senator REED. To the extent that you can check those figures against the mother tongue, that is more certain than the 1890 census, is it not? Mr. BOGGS. I think that without any question it is. Senator REED. So that you have got the first of your four elements settled in terms of post-war geography. You have got the second one subject to pre-war geography corrections? Mr. BOGGS. Yes. Senator REED. But checked by mother-tongue statistics? Senator REED. In getting your 1890 basis you do not have that check by mother tongue? Mr. BOGGS. No; because our mother-tongue statistics begin in 1910. These two, may I add, account for one-third of the total quota. Senator REED. To the extent of that third, you have a greater certainty under the national-origins basis, I take it, than you have under 1890? Mr. BOGGS. That is true. Senator REED. How about the remainder? Mr. BOGGS. Dividing between the two, the colonial stock and the "grandchildren" (as we speak of it) part of the post-colonial or immigrant stock: The Census Bureau has done a very great amount of work in trying to make the division between those two as precise as possible, and find that the ratio is about 2 to 1; in other words, about 45 per cent in the quotas get their distribution from the colonial stock of 1790, and about 21.6 per cent from the grandchildren factor. Actually, whatever element of uncertainty there is in dividing between the two has very little effect. Accurate tests show that if there has been an error of 1,000,000 population in dividing between the colonial and the grandchildren factor (in the computation by the Bureau of the Census) which is rather difficult to suppose, the effect on the quotas would amount to less than 1,000 in the case of Great Britain, less than 400 in the quotas in the cases of Germany and the Irish Free State, and less than 50 in each of the rest. So that the division between those two, although it has been done with great care, really has not as much effect upon the quotas as would be supposed. Senator REED. Now, Mr. Boggs, turning to the 1890 method-that is, the basis of determining the quotas according to the foreign born, shown by the census of 1890-is that certain, definite, and accurate? Mr. BOGGS. I take it that the figures as reported are accurate. We have no reason to question them. Senator REED. The figures in the census itself? Mr. BOGGS. The figures in the census itself; yes, sir. |