Mr, MCKENZIE. No. We do not plan or anticipate the submission of any proposals that would cover increased pay for members of the profession of podiatry.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Do you rank them a little bit behind the veterinarians? Mr. MCKENZIE. We don't rank them behind the veterinarians. Our special pay proposals are based primarily on the difficulties that we expect or anticipate in recruiting and retaining personnel in the profession that is involved. We are not experiencing at present, nor do we anticipate experiencing, difficulties with respect to the procurement and the retention of podiatrists of such magnitude as to justify the submission of such a proposal.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Do you have the impression that the podiatrists now serving do not anticipate any special care, such as the veterinarians or the optometrists are getting?

Mr. MCKENZIE. No. I feel relatively certain that some members of that health profession do look forward to the addition of their group to the special pay categories.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Wouldn't you think that a podiatrist might feel, well, if he does not get the benefits, that he might look elsewhere?

Mr. MCKENZIE. That is quite possible. Although, I will add that this is a situation that has existed for many years. While it undoubtedly has occurred with respect to a few individuals, it has not adversely impacted on our ability to maintain our prescribed strength.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Thank you very much. Those are all the questions I have.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. ASPIN. Can you tell me what is the podiatrists strength, or what is the authorized strength of them at the moment, the number? I refer to the number of podiatrists that are in the Armed Forces. Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes.

Mr. ASPIN. Could you give that information to me, please, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. MCKENZIE. At present, we are authorized 107 podiatrists on active duty in the Armed Forces. As of 15 July, we had 111 podiatrists on active duty.

Mr. ASPIN. It is your view that the $100 is a recruitment, plus retention? Is that right? Your argument is on the case of the podiatrist, that there is no particular need for this since there is no recruitment problem or retention problem?

Mr. MCKENZIE. There is no problem of such significance as to warrant this.

Mr. ASPIN. What is the question about whether the podiatrists enter at the 02 or the 03 level? Could you please make a comment on that?

Mr. MCKENZIE. This is a subject that Dr. Mitchell is very interested in. This has come up during the DOPMA hearings. This concerns a somewhat confusing situation dealing with the methods by which constructive credit is awarded to the members of the various health professions that are serving in the Armed Forces.

There are differences in the way computations are made. There are differences in the way that credit is applied. The problem that we have had with respect to the podiatrists has to do with the changes in the amount of, time required for the attainment of the grade

of captain in the Army and Air Force. We have not, in recent years, made any changes in the amount of constructive credit that is given to podiatrists, but, sir, when the size of the Armed Forces, particularly the officer corps, declines, and the promotions become slower than before, the amount of credit that was given and is still given, that once resulted in their becoming captains at an earlier date, no longer proves sufficient for that purpose.

Mr. ASPIN. Are podiatrists treated differently from the other medical professions in that regard?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes. There are a number of differences among the health professions regarding the amounts of constructive credit that are granted.

Mr. ASPIN. Is this part of this legislation that is before us?

Mr. MCKENZIE. No. This is dealt with in the DOPMA legislation. Mr. ASPIN. What is your position and that of the Department on this?

Mr. MCKENZIE. The position of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health and Environment and the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Manpower and Reserve Affairs is that the present system is inequitable, that the present system needs to be changed; also that a basic concept and set of criteria need to be developed. They should be applied across the board based upon the facts regarding all health professions.

Mr. ASPIN. Whatever the policy is, it should apply to all equally. Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes.

Mr. ASPIN. As to the podiatrists, the DOD believes or feels that you do not need the $100 bonus at this time. Is that correct?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes.

Mr. ASPIN. What did the OMB say? Have they been asked their opinion as to adding the podiatrists to the bill?

Mr. MCKENZIE. OMB has not been asked formally, but I believe they agree with us.

Mr. STRATTON. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Aspin? Mr. ASPIN. Let me ask this. In the ranks regarding the veterinarians and the optometrists, how many of them are general officers?

Mr. MCKENZIE. I would say that, of the 62 or 63 health professionals that we have on active duty, those that hold general or flag rank, only one falls into the two categories. There is one brigadier general in the veterinary corps. There are no general or flag officers in the optometry group, Mr. Aspin.

Mr. ASPIN. There are 62 in the health professional, well, health professions?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes.

Mr. ASPIN. Is that correct?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes. This includes physicians, dentists, veterinarians, nurses and health care administrators at this time.

Mr. ASPIN. There is only one general in the two categories of veterinarians and optometrists?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. ASPIN. Could you talk a little bit about the need for having these people in the uniformed service on the same kind of promotion ladder that the combat officers have? Why is it necessary to have all these people in uniform? Is this really necessary to do this? Can you

have other people not getting the services in some way other than bringing them in to the service as a lieutenant and having them go through the whole system regarding retirement pay and the like?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Now, with respect to most health professions that we use in uniform, we already have a combination. We employ them also in a civilian capacity. The primary reason why we employ most of them in a uniformed status is to have them ready and available to provide the medical and health service support to military operations. They must be ready to move on a moment's notice. They have to be trained and know their specific role in a military situation. They have to be available for overseas deployment at any time.

Mr. ASPIN. Both the veterinarians and the optometrists are required to be in combat situations?

Mr. MCKENZIE. They are required to be in support of combat operations.

Mr. ASPIN. In support of it?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. ASPIN. What about the podiatrists?

Mr. MCKENZIE. The podiatrists are not assigned at present to any units that would normally be in a combat zone. They are used in back-up situations.

Mr. ASPIN. They are not used in the support structure when you consider division support?

Mr. MCKENZIE. That is a difficult question to answer, Mr. Aspin. Mr. ASPIN. What is the difference? I hear these things at times and I don't quite understand them. Could you please explain what the difference is between the combat situation for the veterinarians and the optometrists as compared to the podiatrists?

Mr. MCKENZIE. There are veterinarians and optometrists assigned to units functioning within the combat zone. Podiatrists are not presently assigned in any unit like that.

Mr. ASPIN. Why are the podiatrists in uniform?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Why?

Mr. ASPIN. Yes.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Because they are used in overseas situations, sir, even though not necessarily in a combat zone. They have to be ready and available and to know their specific military mission in order to support military operations.

Mr. ASPIN. Thank you.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. ASPIN. I will let others ask questions at this time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. STRATTEN. Mr. Mitchell, do you have any questions at this time?

Mr. MITCHELL. Yes. Are we limited to the $100 pro-pay bill? Are we going to talk here about constructive credit, as such? Mr. ASPIN. I asked a little bit about that.

Mr. STRATTON. I think that we should try to limit ourselves because there is some urgency with regard to this particular legislation.

Mr. MITCHELL. Will be have a later opportunity to talk to Mr. McKenzie about constructive credit? There are some serious problems with it.

Mr. STRATTON. Mr. Ford.

Mr. FORD. We discussed it to a certain extent already. Perhaps you could ask Mr. McKenzie to provide some information for the committee files. There is great variation within the services among the health professions on this.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Perhaps I could satisfy Dr. Mitchell at this time by saying that, during his absence, I conceded fully to Mr. Aspin that, at present, there is a rather confused, inconsistent, and inequitable situation among the health professions regarding constructive credit, that both the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health and the Environment and for Manpower and Reserves Affairs are in agreement on this. We agree to the need to make drastic changes, sir, in the present arrangement. We are in agreement on the need to devise basic concepts and criteria and to apply this equally and equitably based on the facts among all the health professions. We are now engaged in that task, Mr. Mitchell.

Mr. MITCHELL. Do you feel that the language of DOPMA is sufficiently clear to give equibatle treatment in the service in the health professions?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. MITCHELL. Thank you.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

Mr. STRATTON. Mr. Ford.

Mr. FORD. Would you please provide to the subcommittee the recommendations on what the constructive credit situation should be? When you get rid of the inequities, tell us what you think is the uniform correct system? Would you provide this so that it will be available when we mark up the DOPMA bill?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes. This information will be provided prior to the markup of the DOPMA bill.

Mr. STRATTON. Mr. Mitchell.

Mr. MITCHELL. We would like a formula to provide this information. I think there is great ambiguity in the legislation. I think that there is room for improvement or better thinking.

Mr. MCKENZIE. As I said, I will provide this for the record.
Mr. MITCHELL. Thank you.

Now, as far as the $100 incentive pay bill or matter, last year we talked during the incentive pay hearings about the projected shortages in the health professions. Do you have figures available?

Mr. MCKENZIE. I don't have them with me at this time. I do remember in a general way what the figures were. As I recall, the projected shortages for the optometrists were greater than those for the dentists. I believe that this was a matter of concern.

Mr. MITCHELL. Could you supply that?

Mr. MCKENZIE. We will provide it.

Mr. MITCHELL. We would like that provided for the record, if you

will.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes.

[The following information was received for the record:]

The attached tables present data on health profession shortages that were used during last years variable incentive pay hearings.

Mr. MITCHELL. Thank you very much. Last year we talked about providing more incentives. Now, the $100 professional pay was far less than what we discussed in the legislation. Do you feel that the $100 professional pay will be sufficient to attract and retail the health professionals in veterinary medicine and the others?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes.

Mr. MITCHELL. What has changed since last year?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Last year's legislation was the bonus or the variable incentive pay legislation. We proposed this only for the physicians. This was on the basis of the magnitude of the physician problem. This was much greater than for any other profession. I believe that some members of the subcommittee and the full committee felt that there were other health professionals or professions that should be added to that list. Nothing has substantially changed as far as the relative positions of the health professions from the standpoint of the difficulty in procurement and retention in the past year, Mr. Mitchell. Mr. MITCHELL. The Senate bill included several health professions. That was an earlier version, I believe.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes.

Mr. MITCHELL. Excuse me. Thank you. Now I have to go and vote.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir.