EXTENT OF ICAO AUTHORITY

Chairman FASCELL. The Air Transport Association in its efforts to improve airport security works through the International Civil Aviation Organization on the establishments of standards.

Am I correct?

Mr. LALLY. The International Civil Aviation Organization was established under the auspices of the United Nations and the Chicago Convention, and it is made up of representatives of some 150 nations. It is the technical international organization that provides advice, assistance, guidance, on the operations of international civil air commerce.

Chairman FASCELL. But it cannot mandate security standards? Mr. LALLY. No.

It has an annex 17 that deals with security that contains ICAO standards and recommended practices. It promulgates standards, but it lacks the authority and the resources to evaluate the application of those standards and their effectiveness.

And most importantly, it lacks—and there is a total lack of an international enforcement mechanism to provide sanctions against nations that either support terrorists or do not properly apply the standards.

Chairman FASCELL. Thank you for giving us that review and putting it on the record again. It is very important for people to understand that there is no international mechanism now that exists, that can enforce stricker security standards.

Has the United States gone forward to ICAO, requesting the adoption of higher standards and seeking some kind of implementing and enforcing mechanism?

Mr. LALLY. Well, the Secretary of Transportation, just this past summer, went forward to ICAO and urged the promulgation of strengthened standards; and those standards were strengthened, then were issued, and are now in circulation. The effective date for those standards is approaching very rapidly.

So, I think that demonstrates that ICAO can act, effectively and in a timely manner. As far as the proposals for sanction authority, the United States has made proposals along those lines, but I think they have been lacking in specificity.

If I might observe that the upcoming Tokyo summit meeting of the economic leading nations of the world, I think, provides a unique and timely opportunity to address the subject of international terrorism.

It was at the economic summit meeting in Bonn, in 1978, where the members of that group came out with their so-called Bonn declaration. I think building on that now, with the current sensitivity to the problem of international terrorism, that the Tokyo summit could initiate an action that could lead to broader multilateral actions, perhaps even including the upcoming assembly of ICAO, which is scheduled for September.

Chairman FASCELL. Well, I certainly agree with you, and we have urged that terrorism be put on the agenda at the Tokyo Confer

ence.

MECHANISMS FOR ATA TO VOICE VIEWS

Now, with respect to the comments of the higher security standards at airports, which is now being circulated for comment, is the industry going to be involved in having some opportunity to comment to our own Government?

Mr. LALLY. Yes, there is a mechanism in place by which our government circulates such proposals to interested private sector groups.

Chairman FASCELL. So, ATA will get a shot at commenting on the security standards which ICAO proposes to recommend at some point?

Mr. LALLY. Right. Well, actually the strengthened ICAO standards have already been circulated; we have already commented, and the measures have been promulgated.

But as new standards are proposed and developed, I feel confident that the industry will have the opportunity to review and comment on them.

Chairman FASCELL. I have a lot of questions, but let me finish with this one.

CARRIERS INVOLVEMENT IN THREAT ASSESSMENT

In the determination of both threat and inadequacy of security at foreign airports, do carriers such as TWA, Mr. Steele, get any opportunity to have to review these assessments and to comment on their experience on the ground?

STATEMENT OF JOHN H. STEELE, DIRECTOR OF SECURITY, TRANS WORLD AIRLINES

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Yes, we are in contact through our FAA sources here in the United States. We are in contact through the International Air Transport Association. We conduct surveys using our own security personnel from throughout the world.

We make recommendations; we write reports on airport security. Yes, we have a very definite ability to-

Chairman FASCELL. So, your consultation includes not only airport security, the physical security itself, but also the threat assessment on that particular airport?

Mr. STEELE. Well, the assessment on a particular airport is generally-that threat assessment would be made by other agencies to us through-

Chairman FASCELL. I know, but the question is, do you have an opportunity to comment? I mean after all with all your carriers on the ground

Mr. STEELE. We comment on the security of the airports, and we comment directly to the governments associated with the airports. We do it in writing and we do it orally.

Chairman FASCELL. Well, that is not the question I asked.
Mr. STEELE. I am sorry-I am missing you.

Chairman FASCELL. I am talking about the U.S. threat assessment team that comes through to examine an airport in a foreign country that TWA, or any other American carrier is operating in;

and the question I am asking is whether or not the carrier operating out of that airport has any opportunity to talk to any U.S. people who are making the assessment.

Mr. STEELE. We talked to them in advance. We do not talk to them during the course of their――

Chairman FASCELL. But do you ever find out what it is they discovered?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Chairman FASCELL. Well, what good is it, then?

Mr. LALLY. If I might observe, Mr. Chairman--
Chairman FASCELL. Please, go ahead.

Mr. LALLY. Yes; that was a very important step in the passage of the legislation last year which on this point made explicit the Government's responsibility to do the assessments.

It is our understanding that some assessments were done, but I would say that the industry would recommend that there be established a more regular procedure to involve the carriers that serve an airport, before, during, and after the assessments.

And I think that would be a

Chairman FASCELL. It sure would make sense to me. It does not do much good to keep the carriers in the dark about what is going on with respect to the security requirements at an airport that you are operating under.

I mean that seems ridiculous to me.

Mr. Mineta.

Mr. MINETA. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

PROGRESS SINCE INCEPTION OF THREAT ASSESSMENT PROGRAM

Mr. Lally and Mr. Steele, last summer when the TWA aircraft was hijacked, we found that there were deficiencies in the security at the Athens airport, and that up to that time our Government had not been successful in getting these deficiencies remedied.

These deficiencies or problems were an important reason for our having passed legislation here to require the Department of Transportation to conduct regular assessments of security at foreign airports, to make certain that these airports do meet the minimum standards incorporated in annex 17 developed by ICAO.

So, I appreciate your views on the effects of this legislation. First of all, has there been an improvement at foreign airports since the legislation was passed?

And, second, it is my understanding from prior hearings that the Department of Transportation has conducted assessments at all foreign airports, and that DOT has not found any cases in which an airport's security program is not meeting appropriate standards.

ATA OPINION OF THREAT ASSESSMENT VIABILITY

I am wondering, do you agree with that assessment? And do you believe that there are any foreign airports which do not have satisfactory security programs?

Mr. STEELE. Well, I can only speak for the airports that TWA serves, of course; and I do not believe that at any of those airports we have substandard security in place.

Mr. MINETA. Mr. Lally, from your other member companies in ATA?

Mr. LALLY. I believe that as far as the airlines are concerned, there are no airports they are serving that have any drastic deficiencies in security.

I think that the improvement in foreign airports security since last summer have been quite dramatic, as has been mentioned earlier here today; and I think that even more recent measures that have been introduced by FAA, have produced an extremely high level of security for U.S. airlines at major airports in so-called troubled areas of the world.

Mr. MINETA. Are there situations in which U.S. carriers would like to establish additional security measures that a foreign airport will not allow you to install?

Mr. LALLY. There have been a couple of problem areas there, but I think they are being worked out. We have had some good, you know, relationships, as mentioned earlier, with the FAA, and the State Department; and I think that right at the present time, the State Department is undertaking consultations with some of these other governments about the new measures that are being proposed or introduced to protect U.S. carriers, and where the host nations have any problems at all with regard to them, these problems are being worked out on a case-by-case basis.

Mr. MINETA. Mr. Steele.

Mr. STEELE. I agree with that.

The problems, as we view them, are discussed with appropriate U.S. Government authorities, including the State Department; and I think we work very well, in trying to resolve the issues that are of concern to us.

Yes, I agree with that.

AIRLINE ACCESS TO GOVERNMENT INFORMATION

Mr. MINETA. Let me ask: Are the airlines satisfied that they get all the information which the U.S. Government obtains about specific terrorist threats, particular airports, or particular airliner flights?

It is the same question that Mr. Fascell asked, but I would like to ask it again, because I am not really sure that the airlines are getting this information. It is sort of like, you know, weather information. If the weather observers are getting their information but they are not passing it on to the air traffic controllers who then get that information uplinked to the flight deck, it does not serve any

purpose.

Again, I am just wondering.

Mr. STEELE. Well the-

Mr. MINETA. Are you getting the information? Is it being passed on to you? Even after you get it, can the carrier say, "Hey, hold it. We do not think that is the case at all. At airport X, we think it is even worse than what you've said."

Mr. STEELE. I think if you are talking intelligence information, we are pretty much dependent upon the intelligence community, the various diverse agencies, and we obtain that information through a central source-the Federal Aviation Administration.

I think it is an effective way to meet that need; otherwise, we would be dealing with a variety of agencies, and there would be no evaluation made by a central source, such as the FAA.

AIRLINE INFLUENCE ON SECURITY STANDARDS

Mr. MINETA. Well, let me ask it this way: Instead of worrying about whether or not the CIA, or any intelligence agency is doing their job properly, when your pilot, copilot, flight engineer, or someone sees lax security around the ramp area, what do they do? Mr. STEELE. They make a report.

Mr. MINETA. To whom?

Mr. STEELE. They make a report to my office, to the local airport manager-yes, they make a record of it, and we try to respond to it, and we do respond to it.

Does that answer your question?

Mr. MINETA. Do you then contact airport X, or do you then go through the Federal Aviation Administration's Office of Civil Aviation Security that Mr. Lally used to head up when he was with the FAA? Or what is your procedure?

Mr. STEELE. Well, you have operations people, on site. They are in direct contact with the airport authorities; they know what the procedural requirements are; if they are not being carried out, they can take it directly to the local authorities.

If they do not get the proper response, they move it up to some other level in TWA management, and that type of situation does occur, and we do get response.

Mr. MINETA. Are the airlines satisfied that they are getting this information across the board from our own Government pretty fully?

Mr. LALLY. I was just going to say I think probably no one is ever fully satisfied with the timeliness and the quality and the specificity of intelligence. But I think that the FAA-

Mr. MINETA. But, what is more important than timeliness and specificity.?

Mr. LALLY. That's right. Well, it is just the-

Mr. MINETA. If you are not getting that, then how can you even be satisfied?

Mr. LALLY. Well, I did not mean it that way. I meant that we are getting promptly and specifically the intelligence that exists, that is in the flow. I think the FAA does a good job in interfacing with the intelligence community. They analyze it, put an aviation twist on it, and they pass it on to the airlines in a timely manner. The point I was trying to make is the more intelligence, the better. We're always striving for better intelligence.

ATA VIEW OF CARRY-ON BAGGAGE LIMITS

Mr. MINETA. Captain Duffy testified that it would be helpful in terms of security to limit carry-on baggage. I am wondering what is the airlines' position on limiting carry-on baggage.

Mr. LALLY. Well, the airlines' position on that is that the carryon baggage does not present a security problem. I mean the carryon baggage is inspected and inspected properly, and there is not a