for his family. In other words, we've got to pay more for him than you would be paying for your son at Harvard. In other words, we've got a system which again, under the leadership of the District of Columbia Department of Corrections, in many ways, just as it now stands, is not effective. Look at the balance sheet and the way we handle crime control and this is a great Department. There are many that are not. They ask "How do you do this?" We think of it this way-it costs $5.000 a year per man at Lorton. One inmate said he had his family on welfare for $220 a month. Well the man stays an average of 3 years, and I think that's a reasonable figure for a stay at Lorton-we have pretty severe sentences in this country-multiply $416 and $220 by 36 and he is taking more money out of my taxes. I don't like that. I think inmates should work and pay taxes like the rest of us. I think it is possible to have them do so and if they did work they could send money home to their family. They could pay taxes and pay for their incarceration on their own.

Senator Mathias. Do you consider it peonage to have a checkoff for an inmate for some competitive wage?

Dr. TREBACH. I consider that perfectly reasonable.

Senator MATHIAS. And we would check off the $220 that they were otherwise getting from welfare or some arrangement of that sort?

Dr. TREBACH. Yes; just like they do in foreign countries. In other words, it is accepted in some countries. I had difficulty getting information. They had to send it to me in their language. So I speak with some hesitance about this but some countries like, let's say, Sweden. I did check Finland. There will be situations where a man serving a sentence will work and get paid regular wages. They had a checkoff system and I think we could very easily have a checkoff system where they are paying dues and I think these people ought to be unionized.

I spoke to the AFL-CIO briefly about this and their attitude was interesting. We haven't thought of that, but if we had the right to go in and unionize the prison work force, it is a new idea, but I think they would like the idea of checkoff. Where you get that kind of situation they would be paid a wage.

Senator MATHIAS. Mr. Chairman, I have a few more questions for Dr. Trebach. What do you observe as the main difficulty of an exoffender in obtaining public employment in the Federal or District governments? There has been some testimony here about some real employment back in the Corrections Department itself, which I think is desirable, but what about others?

Dr. TREBACH. Let me be very clear about one point. If I worked at national strategies on how to control crime, I'm sure you gentlemen are most concerned with that, I believe that the No. 1 priority ought to be getting offenders into quality jobs. I say right now 100,000 job-holding offenders rather than 100,000 policemen to control crime. And you control crime better and in a more effective way. Now, that means that if we do not have a policy that get these men into jobs. we are perpetuating the crime cycle. It is my impression that the Federal Government, in terms of its personnel policies in

general, does not appreciate this fact. A great deal could be done to improve the chances of men with records. We have many people in Federal Government with records that are hidden. I mean known records the guys from the ghetto get picked out, and clearly I have some direct knowledge of this fact, the Federal Government is not doing what it could to employ people with records but is trying to do something. It is clearly a long way to go and could use some encouragement.

Senator MATHIAS. One final question. You made some reference to civil rights. What about the rights of the law-abiding citizen? Dr. TREBACH. I think that I would move more toward restitution to the victim. The tort notion of a money award is splendid. I believe we should push these men to pay money awards to their victims. If they are working and saving they can do this. Right now the victim is forgotten and the victim is the poor soul in the ghetto who could use this restitution. When it comes to all this other fancy fact of civil right deprivation which we impose, I think they tend to be somewhat barbaric and if a man loses his liberty I think that's sanction enough, especially when he is guilty when we move toward a notion of restitution to the victim. I think they should have the right to vote and every other civil right that does not in some way directly affect his status in the prison. Senator MATHIAS. Thank you.

Senator STEVENSON. Do most inmates want to work at minimum wages?

Dr. TREBACH. I put that very question to a group of 12 Lorton inmates and I said to them: "Look, you guys have a lousy work record. Let's face it you're not productive. Some of you are but most of you aren't any good." You know what they told me in sum. "Mister._you pay us and see how well we work." That's the best answer I can give. I think there are a number of men in prison, say as high as one-third or even 50 percent of the men now at Lorton who really, and I'm being very pessimistic, would not measure up. I have a feeling that a good 30 percent of those men today would, with good wages, make excellent workers and again I am being conservative.

Senator STEVENSON. Are you suggesting we make it compulsory for whoever it is that doesn't have the incentive get paid?

Dr. TREBACH. No, I'm saying if a man wants to earn some money in real production, anywhere from $17 or so and Mr. Gregory said over $100 in some instances, if he wants to feel like a man and support his family he should have the opportunity if it's available there to work at competitive wages.

Senator STEVENSON. Please give us your observations about employment at a competitive wage for youthful offenders as well as adult offenders.

Dr. TREBACH. Well, I was primarily thinking of adult offenders. I tend to feel that youthful offenders should really work on the education front and training front. But I agree that we should treat them the same way in work as we would somebody on the outside. If they are old enough, and they are youthful offenders, and they want to work then they should have that opportunity. But I

would tend to think that one of the greatest things for the youthful offender is education.

Senator STEVENSON. Do any youthful offenders now have the opportunity to work for pay in the correctional system?

Dr. TREBACH. That one I would have to check on. My recollection is at Lorton, the major institution, you have some young people working but I don't know if

Mr. MONTILLA. Well in the center Mr. Hardy has already said everybody is paid. Those who work and are assigned to engineering, maintenance, crew assignments-not industry but they are working assignments are paid $5, $10, as high as $15 a month. But it's still very nominal and in most cases there are three men doing one man's job.

We have, for example, a situation in culinary, I may be off slightly on this, but we have an operation there that requires approximately 30 or 40 workers and we often find 70 or 90 assigned there. So even if there's a question about whether compensation is adequate for the services rendered, there is almost no useful experience received from that assignment.

Senator STEVENSON. How is that $5, $10, or whatever it is a month computed? Do the men get paid on an hourly basis?

Mr. MONTILLA. It's 7 hours a day whatever hours they put in. Senator STEVENSON. Whatever hours?

Mr. MONTILLA. Yes, sir; it's an hourly rate when it gets above 8 hours.

Senator STEVENSON. What is the hourly rate?

Dr. TREBACH. I can't compute it. It varies. The hourly rate varies according to the job. At Lorton it depends on what shop they are in and once they have a rate pay it can move up on the basis of incentive.

Senator STEVENSON. I don't think we are talking about shopwork; we are talking about nonshopwork.

Dr. TREBACH. I believe that all compensation must come from the industry's fund. Mr. Gregory has something to say about that.

Mr. GREGORY. There are two distinct bases, one for industry and one for the institutional inmate. The institutional inmates are paid on four or five grades, some of them $3 a month, some $7.16 and some $11, and some $13. $13 is the highest he can earn regardless of the number of hours he actually works on his assignment except if he has a key position like a clerk, chief baker, chief cook, or something like that. One of the key men gets $13 for that. In the industry we pay by the hour. That is, if a man has deducted from his salary that time that he is in the work release program, for that hour he drew an hour's pay. He starts out at 8 cents and grade 3, 12 cents; grade 2, 18 cents and on top of this base there is a percentage based on the amount of production in the job.

Senator MATHIAS. Dr. Trebach, you have been talking about work inside an institution. Do you have any observation on work release in general and the work outside these institutions?

Dr. TREBACH. My observation on that is first of all, I already indicated the primacy, the importance I get is the notion of jobs. Most offenders are like most Americans they want to work, they

want to earn money, or they want you to leave them alone otherwise. I think that's very important. When I look at the work release programs here and community centers it's one of the reasons why I say I think it's the best system in the country. They really lay it on in terms of building up these work release programs and community centers which is another word for halfway houses. I suppose they had me down to two houses and I spoke with them. I rapped with them and worked out these ideas with them and they say the idea of the community center work release program is perhaps the best thing yet in the correctional system. The idea of private industry and full wages within the institution would be second best. I think I can agree with them now. The work release program quality improved and I think it is a very good program. It could be improved but it's really in a sense outside some of the things the Department can do. I think the high rate of unemployment we now have, what is it, 6.2 percent is a crime control disaster. It's not just an employment effect-it's the crime control factor. So it's very obvious these men do have a hard time finding good jobs. One thing we could use, that is outside the jurisdiction of the Department, would be to create willingness on the part of our major employers, the Federal Government and private industry the National Capital area, to lean over backwards to find quality jobs for offenders. Now, the men tell me they have trouble in getting employment. Even though they are helped by the Department in job hunting. It's finding the job. Don't give me jazz, man, give me a job. That's what I hear. They want jobs and I think that is the area I could see the greatest work on.

Senator STEVENSON. We are talking about two things now, aren't we? Work release and the halfway house program.

Dr. TREBACH. In my mind they are the same thing. As far as I know the work release program operates in a way where a man is put into a community correctional center house and one of his conditions of staying there is to find a job. It isn't easy and they are in this status while he is in the correctional center. Some men do succeed but to get on work release from Lorton, but the great majority as I understand are literally in the correctional center and there in that status they are work release.

Senator STEVENSON. Can you give us any estimate as to the percentage of those who are in work release and who are actually getting work?

Dr. TREBACH. I can't.

Senator MATHIAS. I just want to make an observation. Somebody commented about culinary work having no value. I spent a good many hours in culinary work in the Navy and it had this value for me that everything else I have ever done since would be progress of a

sort.

Dr. TREBACH. While we're on that I want it known that I was an emptier of waste, a busboy, and I think everything has been up from then while I was going to college.

Senator MATHAIS. Then you understand my philosophy.

Dr. TREBACH. Excellently.

Senator MATHIAS. Almost anything that has happened since has been progress.

Senator STEVENSON. I have a suspicion there, Dr. Trebach, that even as things are now in the institutions, once released they end up working for less pay than they did in the institution if they can get a job.

Dr. TREBACH. They have part time. And these are compensated times. I tell you when doing the study for the coalition I found many people said to me look, we'll work on the Defense Department official. I asked them, our ranking officials, would you consider doing what you could with your economic power and they looked at me very oddly and said no. He said I'm worried about the fact there's a million people, that's the number he grabbed from the air and I'm going to do the same thing, you know some civilian employees of the Department are trimmed, and some civilian employees of the defense contractors are out of employment because of the 3-year constant cut in contracts and they are out of work for the next 3 years or so because of cuts in defense spending and they kept their noses clean. And you know, this is the philosophy that people have and so we've got to face the fact. I think that our policy is one of who has the responsibility to attack the unemployment problem with enormous vigor. You know, the felon is the last hired and the first fired. Senator STEVENSON. Thank you, Dr. Trebach.

Mr. Hardy, proceed.

Mr. HARDY. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Moore will give his remarks.

STATEMENT OF WARREN H. MOORE, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR FOR PROGRAM DEVELOPMENT, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS

Mr. MOORE. Mr. Chairman, Senator Mathias, I will speak to four of the recommendations of the President's Commission on Crime in the District of Columbia and give reference to the fifth. They are the Commission's recommendations for the establishment of director of counseling for the District of Columbia jail. That was 6.20 of the Commission's recommendations. The establishment of a diagnostic and outpatient clinic and a dependent facility was 6.21. And 6.30 of the establishment of a position for recreational segments of the District of Columbia jail program and the Department expanded its educational program as it is detailed; and just honorable mention of the health program to which Mr. Montilla has already alluded.

With reference to the establishment of a director of counseling at District of Columbia jail not being pursued this recommendation along the budgetary route should be successful-we meant to but we failed to present a more innovative approach than we did need. We were fortunate in receiving a law enforcement system plan which became effective in March 1970 to establish a visitor's center in the vicinity of the District of Columbia jail. This center can be operated under contract, which concept originated in California, by a group known as visitors on the outside.

The staff in this particular activity is made up of volunteers. Many are professionals who go into the jail and interview the inmates and