and straighten out this condition as to those who were left behind when the quota law went into effect, which we admit is harsh, and has to be.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. I would like to ask a few questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. You are a paid representative of what organization, if any?

Mr. KINNICUTT. No, Mr. Congressman; I am not. I never had a cent from any organization.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Who do you represent, in fact?

Mr. KINNICUTT. I have stated that I am president of the Allied Patriotic Societies (Inc.). I also happen to be chairman of their committee on immigration, and filed a report with your committee. We have done that every year for the last six years.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. You have been here quite frequently?

Mr. KINNICUTT. Two or three times before this committee.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. The Allied Patriotic Societies, the American Legion, and those other organizations to the number of about 21, have they had before them the number of the bills discussed by you, and have they in joint sessions passed resolutions condemning or opposing these bills?

Mr. KINNICUTT. I have stated that in past years, I have statedMr. DICKSTEIN (interposing). I am not referring to what you have done in past years.

Mr. KINNICUTT. I stated previously that these particular bills have not been before all of the members of the conference. They will be before them to-morrow, and there will be a resolution adopted, and I will be glad to send you a copy of that resolution which they will probably pass.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. If you will be good enough to answer my questions, we will go along more harmoniously and understandingly. I am asking you a simple question, and it is this: Have any of these patriotic societies had these bills, five in number, before them, discussed them, and passed resolutions, or have they even discussed them before their respective organizations?

Mr. KINNICUTT. Yes.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. These particular bills?

Mr. KINNICUTT. Yes.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Each of these organizations has communicated with you?

Mr. KINNICUTT. You are changing your question. You said, "Have any," and now you are saying, "Have each."

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Well, we will take all. I am referring now to the 21 organizations. Have they had these five bills before them and have they objected to them, or all of them, or any of them; and if so, will you say what they have done?

Mr. KINNICUTT. I have already stated that. All of them have not seen all of them.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Which have they seen, if any ?

Mr. KINNICUTT. The immigration Restriction League passed a resolution condemning every one of these bills that are there.

Mr. DICKSTEIN, Where is that information; are the names of the organizations on this list, Mr. Kinnicutt?

Mr. KINNICUTT. No. That is not my list at all.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. I mean this list that appears upon this sheet of paper that was offered here to the chairman.

Mr. KINNICUTT. I know, but I did not introduce it. That is another committee.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. That is another organization?

Mr. KINNICUTT. I am not representing that organization.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. You do not represent any one of these others? Mr. KINNICUTT. I represent some of them, purely accidentally, because one or two of them are members of the Allied Patriotic Societies (Inc.)

Mr. DICKSTEIN. And have they passed any specific resolutions condemning these bills referred to before this committee?

Mr. KINNICUTT. Well, I have tried to make myself very clear. They have not, but

Mr. DICKSTEIN. You have answered that question.

Mr. KINNICUTT. But I have said that they have passed resolutions in the past condemning any weakening of the act. I have tried to make that clear. They have not had these bills brought specifically before them.

The CHAIRMAN. Not only these bills, introduced in this Congress, but bills practically identical on each proposition have been before this committee from time to time, in previous Congresses, have been acted on in some cases, particularly by the House, but rejected by the other body. Relief amendments have been offered ever since the 1924 quota act was passed. Societies of various types have sent in resolutions repeatedly in opopsition. These resolutions are available. Many have been put in the printed hearings. I have several resolutions in opposition now before me.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Mr. Chairman, what I am interested in is getting information as to whether these condemnations of these bills were made recently, and whether the societies had these bills before them, or whether the resolutions were based upon the arguments or pleas or objections to the general trend of immigration. I would like for the Congress to know that.

The CHAIRMAN. Bills introduced by you came up on the calendar for hearing, at your request, and an extended hearing was held 10 days ago or less. It is not to be assumed that all of the branches of all the societies that are named on that list have had an opportunity to have meetings since that time.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. I would like to know that.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think it is a self-evident fact.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. The first bill has a section in it providing for duly visaed passports prior to July 1, 1924. That is covered by H. R.

5645.

Mr. KINNICUTT. Yes, sir.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. You object to that?

Mr. KINNICUTT. Certainly.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. On the theory that the quota will take care of it? Mr. KINNICUTT. Yes; and it is an unnecessary addition to the quota at present.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Were you here when Mr. Simmons, of the State Department, and Mr. Snyder, the former clerk of this committee now representing the Labor Department on this question, were here

about 10 days ago, with regard to 15 countries which were affected by this situation?

Mr. KINNICUTT. I only heard part of the testimony, but I have heard Mr. Simmons.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Go ahead and make such explanation as you care to.

Mr. KINNICUTT. I have answered your question.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Yes. Did you hear Mr. Simmons say no new blood could enter from 15 countries, because the quotas of those 15 countries he enumerated them in the record; if I am wrong, you may correct me, Mr. Chairman-in which the quotas were taken up first by the 50 per cent and the balance, 50 per cent, is completely taken up, and there is not a chance for persons who hold old visas in these countries to ever come to the United States? Did you hear that?

Mr. KINNICUTT. No; he told me that the Russian quota was catching up, and that in his opinion it would come into play in about a year.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Poland has 6,000 more, 3,000 of which, applying this practice of admitting first the fathers and mothers of American citizens, then farmers, wives, and their minor children up to 18 years of age, and husbands of American citizens, the balance of the 50 per cent is taken up by the wives and the minor children of persons legally admitted to the United States. Am I correct?

Mr. KINNICUTT. That is about right.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. As a matter of fact, in 15 of these countries there are enough of these preferences waiting so that there is not a possible chance for a person holding a comparatively old visa, say one issued prior to July 1, 1921, to come here within the next 50 years. Mr. KINNICUTT. That as I understand it, is not true.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. If I am wrong, show me where I am wrong. Mr. KINNICUTT. No; I claim that he is accurate with regard to the countries specified which covered the quotas that he was talking about for Russia and Turkey. His prediction is about where and when they would come in again.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. The first quota law was passed about what date? The CHAIRMAN. July 3, 1921.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. In 1921. These visas referred to here were made in 1923.

Mr. KINNICUTT. Yes.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Because of the permanent policy or permanent

law on immigration that you are discussing, they can not come in. Is not that correct?

Mr. KINNICUTT. Yes.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. That is correct.

Mr. KINNICUTT. Yes.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. These men and women have abandoned their homes and have put their faith in our Government and are ready to come on, but they are prohibited from coming over by this law.

Do you not think that we ought to allow these 2,008 persons who are scattered throughout the world, who have been hoping to join their families, to enter and clean house at that point? Do you think that would be objected to by any of your humane organizations?

Mr. KINNICUTT. I think there is very little evidence that they are undergoing any particular hardships. They got out of Russia because it was a very uncomfortable place to be, but I understand most of them are scattered along, around, in those other countries near Russia, and are probably just as happy over there as they would be over here.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Have you ever visited any of the families of the type I have in mind?

Mr. KINNICUTT. I have not. I have no doubt there are a lot of these refugees.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Have you been in Europe and visited any of these families, as I have, and as many other Members of this House have? Mr. KINNICUTT. No; I have not been in Europe for several years. Mr. DICKSTEIN. Have you ever visited one of these families that left the far parts of Europe on the hope that the visa issued to them as late as 1924, within a month prior to the effective date of the act of Congress of 1924 did you ever speak to any one of them, and their families and their children?

Mr. KINNICUTT. No; but I have talked to many men who have. Mr. DICKSTEIN. Have you had an opportunity to acquaint yourself with the hardships of these people?

Mr. KINNICUTT. I know the policy of the United States, and we desire restricted immigration.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. That does not answer my question. Let us pass to H. R. 5646, which provides for exemptions for the husbands of American citizens.

Mr. KINNICUTT. Yes.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Under the present law a citizen wife, an Americanborn girl, who marries a foreigner, unless he is born in Great Britain, can not bring him in under present conditions, under the preference quota language, before the expiration of from 2 to 110 years.

Do you think that the American woman citizen should not be entitled to the same consideration as the American male citizen who is permitted to bring in his wife?

Mr. KINNICUTT. As the man?
Mr. DICKSTEIN. As the man.

Mr. KINNICUTT. Well

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Does your society think that? When I say "you," I do not mean you personally. I mean the organization you repre

sent.

Mr. KINNICUTT. I can see a very logical ground for not extending that privilege to her; and that would be one way of breaking the quota down.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Suppose we provide in legislation that if fraud is discovered we will have them prosecuted and deported within, say, 20 years. Would your organization go on record then as favorable to that bill?

Mr. KINNICUTT. That is too academic to consider.
Mr. DICKSTEIN. This is a very simple proposition.
Mr. KINNICUTT. I can not answer that question.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Suppose we provide that if at any time it is found that these people are fraudulently in the United States, or that they are here in any other capacity than as legitimate entrants, they may be deported at any time; would you go on record as approving this measure?

Mr. KINNICUTT. I would say this, that it is enough that the present law simply makes them wait a little while, and there is no reason that I can see.

The CHAIRMAN. We will assume that there would not be a great deal of fraud, but nobody can say when a couple is married whether they are going to escape the divorce courts or not. And it might be that some would escape it and some would not escape it. And no one could say, for deportation purposes, whether the divorce was justified or whether it was ill founded.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. That is the very crux of the whole problem. I am not looking just at the present or looking for favoritism from anybody or any organization. I have my opinion that we ought to be humane enough to admit these people who should be admitted and we ought to be prepared to face the question squarely. That is exactly why I am asking these questions. I want the Congress to know just exactly what and why objections are being made against this particular measure.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, the answer is really simple. This committee handled the matter, worked on it here, and reported a bill. It was passed by the House, but we were never able to get it agreed to by the other body.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. I assure you, Mr. Chairman, that the House and the Senate would pass this bill if you will let it come out of this committee.

Now, you said a moment ago that more are coming within the quota, did you not?

Mr. KINNICUTT. Husbands?

Mr. DICKSTEIN. These are husbands of American citizens.
Mr. KINNICUTT. Certainly, they are coming within it.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. That is accorded them.

Mr. KINNICUTT. They get first preference.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Now, let me see, the State Department told us last year or a year or so ago, when Mr. Free's bill was up, that there were 35,000 applicants in Syria. Now, let us assume for the sake of argument that in granting these requests, I mean, as to the current number

Mr. KINNICUTT. Applications for what?

Mr. DICKSTEIN. People seeking entry into the United States; and what they are entitled to is 50, and most, I believe.

Mr. KINNICUTT. Yes.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. All right, we find

The CHAIRMAN. Syria has about 120.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. But, 50 per cent is allotted to the fathers and to the mothers and wives and children, and so on.

If an American girl happens to marry a Syrian by misfortune, and not knowing the law as you know it and probably others know it, do you realize that it would take 110 years before she could bring her husband in here?

Mr. KINNICUTT. I think that she had better go back, rather than destroy the whole immigration law, than to make a change which would apply to all countries, and destroy the whole thing. I think it would be best to let her go back to his country. That would be the best solution.