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The CHAIRMAN. It is only human, I take it, that they would try to do so.

Mr. OLIVER. I should think they would be not only human in trying to go as far as they could, but that they would try to take it to the best court they could find.

The CHAIRMAN. I see your point.

Mr. OLIVER. These particular points-and they are only a part of those I think might properly be considered-lead I think to the general conclusion that this bill attempts an impossible thing to lift from one industry specific details of machinery which have been evolved in 40 years of collective bargaining, and apply it to another industry, which is very different in that there has been no collective bargaining and where the most of the specific provisions are wholly inapplicable.

In the second place, even though such an application were possible, the bill contains, in the specific provisions, elements which would defeat the purpose that I believe underlies the attempt here. That is, that it would create a greater degree of friction, would interfere with an amicable settlement of disputes in the industry, and would probably promote all the undesirable conditions that would otherwise be eliminated in a slow evolution of collective-bargaining relationships.

I believe, Mr. Chairman, I have no other particular point I wish to bring up.

The CHAIRMAN. We are very much obliged to you.

Senator MALONEY. Mr. Oliver, have you ever had any connection at all with the shipping industry?

Mr. OLIVER. Only externally.

Senator MALONEY. I meant internally.

Mr. OLIVER. I have never been a member of a union. I have worked for some organizations; yes.

Senator MALONEY. You indicated that you had not covered all the points of the bill that you thought might need correction.

Mr. OLIVER. Yes, sir.

Senator MALONEY. I wondered if you would like to submit, later on, something to the committee for the record.

Mr. OLIVER. I could draw up a list of similar inconsistencies. Senator MALONEY. I think that would be a good thing for you to do.

Senator ELLENDER. That came to my mind, and I was waiting to suggest it.

Senator MALONEY. I think that would be helpful to us.

Mr. OLIVER. I will be glad to do that if the committee so desires. I think, however, such suggestions would only go to the point of showing it is impossible to transfer such things. I do not believe it would be possible to correct this bill in all its details so as to make it applicable to this industry.

The CHAIRMAN. The labor section, do you mean?

Mr. OLIVER. Yes, sir. However, I will be glad to do that if you wish it done.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe Senator Maloney particularly wishes you to do that.

Senator MALONEY. I wish you would.

The CHAIRMAN. I was impressed this morning, Mr. Oliver, with section 8, I think it was, of the standard agreement. It does seem to me that that might be hitched up to some method of handling things

that might give us a more simple procedure. It is very important if we can to have some arrangement by which these ships may continue to operate when there are disputes. If you are going to have a sitdown and trouble every little while, it is going to be extremely annoying. I had a telegram today from the west coast about a tie-up out there. Of course, it is intolerable to have that kind of thing going on and, unless we can find some way to avoid it and bring about peace, we have no encouragement to spend money in order to develop a merchant marine.

Mr. OLIVER. I should not like to venture a suggestion, Mr. Chairman, not having all of your experience, but it would seem to me you might find some method along this line: That, insofar as the bill contains the possibilities of limiting governmental aid to shipowners, such aid might be extended only to those maritime employers who have collective-bargaining relations with their employees, including this nonstrike proviso.

Senator MALONEY. I wish you would offer such an amendment in your language for our consideration.

Mr. OLIVER. I will be glad to do that.

Senator MALONEY. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Oliver is pretty conservative, and does not go as far as I do in that respect.

The CHAIRMAN. I was glad to hear him say that one could hold another view and still not be guilty of perversity.

Mr. OLIVER. I heard that discussion this morning, and I do not think it necessary to say to a man of your wide experience and knowledge that people with the background of trade unionists ought not to be expected to understand the fine distinctions contained in language that may be considered clear to a person of your position.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no ill-feeling so far as I am concerned. Mr. OLIVER. I am sure of that.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other witnesses who would like to be heard this afternoon? [A pause, without response.] What about Mr. Lundeberg? Will he be here tomorrow?

Mr. PATRICK B. WHALEN. There were two or three men flying from the Pacific coast, including one of the officers off of the steamship Hoover. They were supposed to be here yesterday, but I have not as yet heard of their arrival.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I certainly hope they won't be caught in any crash.

Mr. WHALEN. Will it be all right, Mr. Chairman, if we get word from them that they are on the way down here, or somewhere, like Cheyenne, for them to come before the committee at some later date?

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes; we want to hear them.

Mr. WHALEN. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. And we will hear them. The only thing to be considered is that there is difficulty about getting the attendance of members of the committees. You see, the members of these committees are also on other Senate committees, and it is oftentimes difficult to get them together.

Mr. WHALEN. I understand.

The CHAIRMAN. I am very anxious, and should like to say to the committees at this time, that we want to begin to write up this bill pretty soon. There are controversial matters, perhaps outside of the matters we have been discussing today, but I think the most

of the bill is noncontroversial. I think we will find when we get down to it that we will have no trouble. We will be glad, however, to hear others if they care to speak today.

Senator DONAHEY. On the merits of the bill, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. On the merits of the bill and on other features of the bill. I do not want to urge any witnesses to appear, but if they are so disposed we will be glad to hear them now. [A pause, without response.] Well, then, I think you better let us know when Mr. Lundeberg will be here.

Mr. WHALEN. I will do that as soon as I leave the committee room and can get in touch with those people.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will stand adjourned at this time. (Thereupon, at 4:45 p. m., Tuesday, January 11, 1938, the committee adjourned subject to call of the Chair.)

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A BILL TO AMEND THE MERCHANT MARINE ACT OF 1936
AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES

32437

PART 7

JANUARY 15 AND 19, 1938

Printed for the use of the Committee on
Commerce and the Committee on Education and Labor

UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON: 1938

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