unwillingness of engineers to serve the Government at Panama because of physical or other conditions that existed there. You have named the men, and you have made that statement. Now, take either one of these names that you have mentioned, and state what that man said to you.

Mr. BIGELOW. Mr. Senator, I would rather withdraw the name that I first mentioned.

Senator MORGAN. You can not withdraw anything.

Mr. BIGELOW. Because I do not

Senator MORGAN. You have sworn to what is in this record, and a man can not swear to a thing and then withdraw it.

Mr. BIGELOW. Well, I have committed an indiscretion for the first time in my life, then.

Senator MORGAN. I do not know about your indiscretions; that is a question for another tribunal, perhaps. But you have made these statements here this afternoon, giving several names. I now ask you for what these men or any one of them said to you on that subject.

Mr. BIGELOW. Mr. Senator, I have answered that question so often that I can only repeat it. I am not an engineer, and

Senator MORGAN. No, no; not about your not being an engineer; I am not asking you about an engineering question. I am asking you a plain matter of fact.

Mr. BIGELOW. You are asking me to repeat private conversations. Senator MORGAN. I am asking you what they have said to you in those private conversations on this subject. That is the question now. Mr. BIGELOW. I will do so when I have their permission.

Senator MORGAN. And not before?

Mr. BIGELOW. Certainly not.

Senator MORGAN. Certainly not?
Mr. BIGELOW. I would prefer-

Senator MORGAN. Now, Mr. Bigelow, that brings the question up. The law of the land, which is here-and if you wish to have it read to you it will be read to you-requires you, as a witness before a Senate committee, to answer any question that the Senate committee puts to you, although it may violate a private confidence, or although it might incriminate you. The law requires it. And in the event that you refuse to do so, it is the duty of this committee to report this matter to the President of the Senate; it is his duty to certify the facts to the criminal jurisdiction in the District of Columbia, and to proceed with it in the courts. Now, do you wish any further explanation about the law of the situation?

Mr. BIGELOW. I will take your word on a point of law; I am only speaking of a point of ethics.

Senator MORGAN. It will be read to you, if you desire to know it. Now, you refuse to answer, without the consent of the men with whom you have had these conversations, a question as to what they said to you in respect of being averse to or objecting to or refusing to accept employment by the Government of the United States in the Isthmus on account of physical or other conditions? You refuse?

Mr. BIGELOW. Why, I have to refuse, of course.
Senator MORGAN. Without their consent?

Mr. BIGELOW. But I would like to appeal to the chairman on this matter. I was invited to make a statement. I have been trying

to make the statement, but I have been drawn aside on matters which are excessively important legally

Senator MORGAN. I do not wish to discuss any matter with you, Mr. Bigelow. You are a witness before the committee, and you have not the privilege of discussing anything, if you will allow me to say so. We are trying to pursue an inquiry here that we think will bring out the truth, and nothing but the truth-the facts. That requires no discussion.

Mr. BIGELOW. Well, then, Mr. Senator, without discussing, you asked me to make a statement; you have taken it down partially, and cut it off and left it there in a broken form.

At the request of Senator Morgan, the stenographer read aloud the following question:

Now, you refuse to answer, without the consent of the men with whom you have had these conversations, a question as to what they said to you in respect of being averse to or objecting to or refusing to accept employment by the Government of the United States in the Isthmus on account of physical or other conditions? You refuse?

Senator MORGAN (after the reading by the stenographer). You do refuse?

Mr. BIGELOW. Oh, of course.
Senator MORGAN. Very good.

Senator HOPKINS. Mr. Bigelow, do you also refuse to give the names of any other eminent engineers who have had such talk with you, who refused to go to the Isthmus because of the physical conditions there, or any limitations that are placed upon the administration of the Zone?

Mr. BIGELOW. I have no names of any who refused to me to go there, and I will not even say that either of these gentlemen refused. All I decline to do is to repeat the substance of private conversations. I was called here, as I understood it, to give my experiences down there.

Senator MORGAN. You were called here as a witness, to tell the truth. That was what you were called for.

Mr. BIGELOW. But these were things that happened up here.

Senator MORGAN. Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee room be cleared.

The motion was carried, and the committee went into executive session; after which an adjournment was taken until to-morrow, Friday, January 19, 1906, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.

ISTHMIAN CANAL.

COMMITTEE ON INTEROCEANIC CANALS,

UNITED STATES SENATE,

Washington, D. C., Friday, January 19, 1906.

The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m. in executive session, at the conclusion of which a recess was taken until 2.30 o'clock p. m.

AFTER RECESS.

At the expiration of the recess the committee resumed its session. Present: Senators Millard (chairman), Kittredge, Hopkins, Ankeny, Morgan, Taliaferro, Gorman, and Simmons.

Present, also, Maj. Hugh J. Gallagher, U. S. Army.

TESTIMONY OF MAJ. HUGH J. GALLAGHER, U. S. ARMY.

Major GALLAGHER was duly sworn, and testified as follows: The CHAIRMAN. Major Gallagher, you are connected with the Army, I believe?

Major GALLAGHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In what capacity?

Major GALLAGHER. As major, Commissary Department.

The CHAIRMAN. You have been in the service of the Isthmian Canal Commission, have you not?

Major GALLAGHER. Yes, sir; for the past year.

The CHAIRMAN. In what capacity have you been connected with it? Major GALLAGHER. For the first four months, from February 1 until June 1, I was purchasing agent, and from June 1 until the present time I have been deputy general purchasing officer.

Senator SIMMONS. From June 1, 1905, do you mean?

Major GALLAGHER. Yes, sir; from June 1, 1905, until the present time.

The CHAIRMAN. What have been the duties of which you have had charge?

Major GALLAGHER. While I was purchasing agent, I had general charge of purchasing all materials as called for upon requisitions from the Isthmus As deputy general purchasing agent, I have acted as assistant to the general purchasing officer, acting in his place during his absence, and doing whatever work he wished to assign me.

The CHAIRMAN. During that time have you been in Washington all the time?

Major GALLAGHER. Yes, sir,

The CHAIRMAN. You have not been to New York?

Major GALLAGHER. I have been in Washington most of the time. Occasionally I have had to take a trip to New York.

Senator GORMAN. Had not Major Gallagher better give, in his own way, a general description of the duties of that office?

The CHAIRMAN. I think so.

Senator GORMAN. Just give, in your own way, a description of the organization of the office, and a full statement of the scope of your duties.

Major GALLAGHER. In the beginning I was the first purchasing agent of the Commission, and was called upon to organize the purchasing department; and in doing so I followed as nearly as possible the methods that are in vogue in the different Departments of the Government; that is, we would receive a requisition from the Isthmus; the material called for in that requisition would be abstracted, advertisements would be gotten out and inserted in newspapers, and bids would be invited, to be opened at a certain time. When that time arrived, the bids would be opened, all of them would be abstracted, the awards made, and the orders placed for the material. There was also a vast amount of correspondence relative to the different classes of material; people all over the country wanted to know about getting these circular posters to enable them to bid, and asked questions about the kind of material that was wanted, and so on, where it was not clear in the specifications. That work was conducted in this office, and some of those purchases were made in the branch offices which were established in New York and New Orleans.

The CHAIRMAN. Are those the only branch offices you have?

Major GALLAGHER. Those were the only ones that we had where any purchases were made. There were and are now assistant purchasing agents in San Francisco and in Tacoma. They, however, make very few purchases; their duty being mainly to look after the inspection of material. There is a large quantity of lumber being purchased out in that region, and their duty is to look after the shipment and inspection of that lumber.

Senator HOPKINS. But who buys that lumber?

Major GALLAGHER. It is purchased in the office in Washington. That is, the bids are opened in Washington, and the awards made in Washington.

Senator HOPKINS. The award is made here, and then those men look over the lumber to see whether what is purchased is up to the standard?

Major GALLAGHER. In accordance with the specifications, they have charge of the inspection and shipment of it. It is their principal duty. The man at Tacoma, especially, has been given much of that work to do.

Senator HOPKINS. Yes. What other things besides lumber do you buy out on the Pacific coast?

Major GALLAGHER. At the present time there is very little besides lumber that I think of. We did make purchases of some canned goods and material of that kind some time ago, but recently there has been very little purchased on the Pacific coast except lumber.

Senator HOPKINS. What else has there been?

Major GALLAGHER. I do not think of anything, Senator.

Senator HOPKINS. What does the agent do at San Francisco? What is the necessity of keeping an agent there?