action that I outlined for you that has taken place within the last year will continue. Senator KOHL. OK. To move on, Mr. Attorney General, in the drug bill that was passed last fall, the Senate passed my amendment to create a program in Justice that would dispense seed money to community antidrug coalitions. The amendment would give the Bureau of Justice Assistance more money-$15 million more in 1990-to help coalitions develop comprehensive antidrug programs. This very same amendment is now part of Chairman Biden's crime bill, S. 1972. Recently, your department expressed its opposition. In a letter to Chairman Biden dated March 19, Bruce Navarro said that BJA already has enough authority to make discretionary grants. He also said that community funding is coming through the Department of Health and Human Services. While I am very pleased that HHS will give out $50 million this year to community coalitions, wouldn't it also make sense to let BJA grant grassroots assistance money? Attorney General THORNBURGH. I have spoken to a number of those groups, most recently in Memphis, TN, and in Spokane, WA and in Senator Grassley's State of Iowa. They perform a very important function of galvanizing community activity at the grassroots level to try to change the values of a society that became permissive with regard to a drug-dependent lifestyle. And I am pleased to have seen in observing the plans of the 50 States for using the Federal funding that has been made available in greatly increased amounts during this fiscal year an emphasis on aiding and assisting in those types of programs of getting communities involved in solving their own efforts. I believe, however, that the approach the administration has taken in making those funds available to the States has permitted the States to establish the priorities that are peculiar to their own needs rather than having us in Washington direct by specific amount or program how they should address what oftentimes is a problem that has peculiar community characteristics. I am more comfortable with that, I guess, as a former governor, feeling that the governors and their advisers in the drug area can better fashion a program that is responsive to the needs of a particular State than those of us who are somewhat removed from those problems. Senator KOHL. I would like to shift gears for a minute and discuss a problem we have in Wisconsin. In my hometown of Milwaukee, the U.S. marshals, who are under your control-and this is the same topic that you discussed with Senator Specter-the marshals have to bring about 90 prisoners to the Federal courthouse each day, but jails near Milwaukee do not have enough room to house Federal prisoners awaiting trial. Consequently, the marshals keep some prisoners in Chicago at the Metropolitan Corrections Center. At least 3 days a week, the marshals in Milwaukee have to take a van and go back and forth to Chicago. It is a five-hour round trip. It is costly; it is ineffective, inconvenient, perhaps even unsafe. You have discussed it with Senator Specter. I guess my question to you is whether or not your department is prepared to work with us in Milwaukee to come up with a solution that makes more sense than the present way in which we handle it. Attorney General THORNBURGH. Certainly, we are, Senator, and I wish there were an easy answer to this dilemma. It is another illustration of how we become victims of our own success. We are prosecuting and arresting more and more drug defendants. They must be housed temporarily pending trial and permanently following conviction in facilities that simply, at present, can't accept the strain. The marshals service today has in custody an average of 13,000 prisoners. That is about twice the level that it was 4 years ago, and clearly we have not yet caught up with the jail needs any more than we have caught up with the prison needs; that is, pretrial and posttrial incarceration. The Congress recognized and moved in the right direction last year with $1.4 billion, an unprecedented amount, for prison construction. We are hoping to use some of the facilities that are authorized there to alleviate this problem, but it becomes a zero sum game. You can't take away from one aspect of the problem to deal with another without paying a price. So we will be delighted to work with you in that regard, and I will refer, in particular, to the task force that was created at my direction by the marshals, the Bureau of Prisons, and the Immigration and Naturalization Service to come up with some recommendations as to how those three agencies, each of which has these problems, can deal with them more effectively. And I will be sure to direct them to Wisconsin as a priority, in view of your particular interest. Senator KоHL. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Your time is up, Senator, unfortunately. The CHAIRMAN. General, Senator Thurmond and I have a few more questions, as does the-and we won't keep you much longer, but let me ask you a question. Is it possible—although we truly appreciate your 3 hours you have given us, is it possible between now and June for you to come back up to the committee to pursue some of the many questions that still remain? Every one of my colleagues has indicated they have additional questions they would like to ask you. Would you be able to find it in your schedule between now and June, in the next 2 months, to come back to this committee before the authorization—— Attorney General THORNBURGH. I certainly hope so. The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon? Attorney General THORNBURGH. I said I would certainly hope so. The CHAIRMAN. That is a State Department answer, General. [Laughter.] I am used to that from the Foreign Relations Committee. You are a tough talking prosecutor. Will you come up or won't you come up between now and June? Attorney General THORNBURGH. Certainly. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Now, I have a few followup questions here. Two weeks ago when the Assistant FBI Director testified before this committee about budget reshuffling this notion of the original proposal to cut 433 FBI agents, a lot of criticism— action that I outlined for you that has taken place within the last year will continue. Senator KOHL. OK. To move on, Mr. Attorney General, in the drug bill that was passed last fall, the Senate passed my amendment to create a program in Justice that would dispense seed money to community antidrug coalitions. The amendment would give the Bureau of Justice Assistance more money-$15 million more in 1990-to help coalitions develop comprehensive antidrug programs. This very same amendment is now part of Chairman Biden's crime bill, S. 1972. Recently, your department expressed its opposition. In a letter to Chairman Biden dated March 19, Bruce Navarro said that BJA already has enough authority to make discretionary grants. He also said that community funding is coming through the Department of Health and Human Services. While I am very pleased that HHS will give out $50 million this year to community coalitions, wouldn't it also make sense to let BJA grant grassroots assistance money? Attorney General THORNBURGH. I have spoken to a number of those groups, most recently in Memphis, TN, and in Spokane, WA and in Senator Grassley's State of Iowa. They perform a very important function of galvanizing community activity at the grassroots level to try to change the values of a society that became permissive with regard to a drug-dependent lifestyle. And I am pleased to have seen in observing the plans of the 50 States for using the Federal funding that has been made available in greatly increased amounts during this fiscal year an emphasis on aiding and assisting in those types of programs of getting communities involved in solving their own efforts. I believe, however, that the approach the_administration has taken in making those funds available to the States has permitted the States to establish the priorities that are peculiar to their own needs rather than having us in Washington direct by specific amount or program how they should address what oftentimes is a problem that has peculiar community characteristics. I am more comfortable with that, I guess, as a former governor, feeling that the governors and their advisers in the drug area can better fashion a program that is responsive to the needs of a particular State than those of us who are somewhat removed from those problems. Senator KOHL. I would like to shift gears for a minute and discuss a problem we have in Wisconsin. In my hometown of Milwaukee, the U.S. marshals, who are under your control-and this is the same topic that you discussed with Senator Specter—the marshals have to bring about 90 prisoners to the Federal courthouse each day, but jails near Milwaukee do not have enough room to house Federal prisoners awaiting trial. Consequently, the marshals keep some prisoners in Chicago at the Metropolitan Corrections Center. At least 3 days a week, the marshals in Milwaukee have to take a van and go back and forth to Chicago. It is a five-hour round trip. It is costly; it is ineffective, inconvenient, perhaps even unsafe. You have discussed it with Senator Specter. I guess my question to you is whether or not your department is prepared to work with us in Milwaukee to come up with a solution that makes more sense than the present way in which we handle it. Attorney General THORNBURGH. Certainly, we are, Senator, and I wish there were an easy answer to this dilemma. It is another illustration of how we become victims of our own success. We are prosecuting and arresting more and more drug defendants. They must be housed temporarily pending trial and permanently following conviction in facilities that simply, at present, can't accept the strain. The marshals service today has in custody an average of 13,000 prisoners. That is about twice the level that it was 4 years ago, and clearly we have not yet caught up with the jail needs any more than we have caught up with the prison needs; that is, pretrial and posttrial incarceration. The Congress recognized and moved in the right direction last year with $1.4 billion, an unprecedented amount, for prison construction. We are hoping to use some of the facilities that are authorized there to alleviate this problem, but it becomes a zero sum game. You can't take away from one aspect of the problem to deal with another without paying a price. So we will be delighted to work with you in that regard, and I will refer, in particular, to the task force that was created at my direction by the marshals, the Bureau of Prisons, and the Immigration and Naturalization Service to come up with some recommendations as to how those three agencies, each of which has these problems, can deal with them more effectively. And I will be sure to direct them to Wisconsin as a priority, in view of your particular interest. Senator KOHL. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Your time is up, Senator, unfortunately. The CHAIRMAN. General, Senator Thurmond and I have a few more questions, as does the-and we won't keep you much longer, but let me ask you a question. Is it possible-although we truly appreciate your 3 hours you have given us, is it possible between now and June for you to come back up to the committee to pursue some of the many questions that still remain? Every one of my colleagues has indicated they have additional questions they would like to ask you. Would you be able to find it in your schedule between now and June, in the next 2 months, to come back to this committee before the authorization Attorney General THORNBURGH. I certainly hope so. Attorney General THORNBURGH. I said I would certainly hope so. The CHAIRMAN. That is a State Department answer, General. [Laughter.] I am used to that from the Foreign Relations Committee. You are a tough talking prosecutor. Will you come up or won't you come up between now and June? Attorney General THORNBURGH. Certainly. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Now, I have a few followup questions here. Two weeks ago when the Assistant FBI Director testified before this committee about budget reshuffling-this notion of the original proposal to cut 433 FBI agents, a lot of criticism Attorney General THORNBURGH. Mostly from me. The CHAIRMAN. Well, wherever, and that is great. He came back and he said, well, what happened was a little reshuffling went on when that got put back in; that is, when the cut was cut. And he said it resulted in, quote, "the delay of purchase of our ten-millimeter gun which was designed to be more effective against high-caliber automatic weapons used by drug dealers." Also, there was reference, and I don't have it in front of me now, about bulletproof vests as well that had to be slowed up. Did the Department approve the budget cuts that prevent the FBI agents from buying the guns that they say they need? Attorney General THORNBURGH. I am not aware of the process that was followed. What I am aware of is that when the original estimates from the FBI sketched serious cuts in the President's major anticrime initiatives, I asked them to go back to the drawing board and secure that those initiatives were observed and followed, and they did so, in cooperation with the department people working the budget. And I have to assume that the result that was reached was one satisfactory to all parties, but I do not—I can't answer specifically on what the items were. The CHAIRMAN. Do you believe the FBI needs that 10-millimeter gun? Attorney General THORNBURGH. I am not in a position to answer that question, but I can't doubt what the FBI says. The CHAIRMAN. With regard to juvenile justice, the President's National Drug Strategy acknowledges that 90 percent of juvenile offenders-this is from the President's drug strategy-have drug problems, and that juveniles, quote, "are becoming an increasingly significant part of the national drug problem," end of quote. At the same time, you have proposed to virtually eliminate the very program that is designed to fight that problem. The proposal that was put forward by your Department would cut the leading Federal agency dealing with juvenile offenders from $70 million to $7.5 million, in contrast to a proposal that I and others have put forward creating a $100 million juvenile justice antidrug and antigang program. Notwithstanding the fact that the Department of Health and Human Services is addressing the gang problem-and that is, it has directed $14 million to that area-how can we justify only putting $7.5 million into the juvenile justice program? Attorney General THORNBURGH. It is a matter of making due with the resources we have, Senator. The amount of resources made available to the Department of Justice during the past 2 years for all of our programs has been generous indeed, and I do not mean to indicate otherwise. It is our responsibility to target those resources to priority areas. Obviously, the programs that have been supported over the years in the juvenile area, many of which have been taken over by the States-we have put over $1 billion in grants since 1975 into those programs, but there comes a time when they have to be taken over by the unit of government that is most close to the problem. I go back to my original observation. How much is enough? How much is the American public willing to pay, how much are you |