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Here is North Carolina with 51.8 percent of its people of adult population voting and the State of Texas with only 44.4 percent of its population voting; yet North Carolina is condemned by this law and Texas is exonerated.

I want to thank you for your statement. Despite the fact that some of these projections and estimates that are made are final, I will tell another story to illustrate something about estimates.

Bill asked his friend George, "What become of your old hound dog?"

He said, "I sold him for $5,000."

Bill said, "George, you know you never got $5,000 for that old hound dog."

He said, "No, I did not get it in cash, but I got it in trade. I took two alley cats which were estimated to be worth $2,500 apiece."

I think it is pretty bad when a law comes along and says estimates and projections are going to be final and not open to question. I want to thank you.

Senator KENNEDY. Mr. Director, could I ask one final question? Senator ERVIN. My good friend from Massachusetts said that the Attorney General gave a definition that was satisfactory to most of the Senators of this phrase "political subdivision." I called his attention to the fact that a political subdivision of a State includes all political subdivisions of a State such as cities and towns as well as counties and townships and school districts and sanitary districts and special school districts. He said they did not intend it to go below the county level. I pointed out to him the fact that the courts would have to construe this bill by the words in this bill rather than by the concealed intention in the mind of the Attorney General. And the Attorney General said, well, he thought maybe it needed an amendment to clarify that part of the bill. The bill needs many amendments. The best one would be to strike out everything after the enacting clause. Then it would be in right shape.

Senator KENNEDY. Just on that point, Mr. Director, I ask this question for the point of accuracy. Section 3(a) discusses the que tion of tests or devices in any State or any political subdivision of a State. What is in question is the definition of a political subdivision and after an exchange on that, I mentioned the definition in se tion 3(b) of the Douglas bill which says, "or any political subdivision of a State which is independent of the political jurisdiction of a county parish, or similar political subdivision."

He agreed substantially with that.

Senator ERVIN. And in North Carolina, that would take in every thing, including the wards of every city.

Senator KENNEDY. I had just one very brief question, just for clar fication, on this section 3(a), which charges your responsibility, M

Eckler.

I can see a possibility wherein that first phrase of section 2, wher it says the Director of the Census determines that less than 50 percen of the people of voting age residing therein were registered on Nover ber 1, 1964, you might have 100 people or 1,000 people and you mig have 75 percent of those people which would be registered as of th date. Then that would mean that the aspect of the trigger would no

residential election, then the trigger would work. In effect, then, here is an interrelationship in this. It is certainly my feeling that gislation which is directed toward the purpose in mind of registraion, such a trigger certainly makes sense and is an important aspect f this legislation.

So I can understand, at least to some extent, that it is somewhat learer as to what the responsibilities are.

Senator ERVIN. I am very much intrigued by this word "trigger." This is a trigger that is going to shoot the Constitution if it is pulled. Senator KENNEDY. I want to express my own appreciation for your ppearance and your responsiveness on these matters. I think it has een extremely helpful and I found it enlightening. I want to thank ou and your assistant for coming up here.

Senator ERVIN. If there is no objection from any member of the ommittee, we will take a recess now until 2:15.

(Whereupon, at 12:05 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at 15 o'clock, the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Macy, will you please come forward.
You may proceed.

STATEMENT OF JOHN W. MACY, JR., CHAIRMAN, U.S. CIVIL
SERVICE COMMISSION

Mr. MACY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the oppornity of appearing before this committee on behalf of Senate 1564, e proposed Voting Rights Act of 1965.

In his address to the Congress on March 15, the President made ystal clear his determination that denial or abridgement of the right a person to vote because of his race or color shall be eliminated. he Civil Service Commission will support the President in this task ith equal determination. My colleagues, the Commission staff and are honored by the responsibilities we are given by this bill. The Attorney General, Mr. Chairman, has testified in detail on the ed for this bill and on its provisions. Therefore, I am limiting my marks to the specific duties of the Commission and the manner in hich those duties would be carried out.

My colleagues and I are not unmindful of the reasons why the Civil rvice Commission was selected to perform the functions that would given to it by this bill. As the Attorney General has testified, the mmission was named because of its long established reputation as a npolitical and bipartisan body. We believe our experience equips with the objectivity to perform the responsibilities assigned. I would like to summarize briefly for the committee what the Comssion conceives to be its principal responsibilities under the bill. These responsibilities are set forth in sections 4, 5, 6, and 10. Secin 4(a) provides for the appointment, without regard to civil service Vs, of examiners to prepare and maintain list of eligible voters in ? political subdivisions that become subject to the bill.

Under section 5(a) the Commission is authorized to prescribe the m of the application for registration. The form of the application

as provided for in section 5(a) will in a large measure depend upon the particular state or subdivision involved, the effect of the determinations made by the Attorney General under section 3 (a) of the bill, and the outcome of the Commission's consultation with the Attorney General which is provided for in section 6 (b).

The CHAIRMAN. What are you going to do? Are you an inde pendent agency, or are you going to take orders from the Attorney General? Which is it?

Mr. MACY. Under the bill, Mr. Chairman, it would be the Commission's obligation to receive from the Attorney General interpretations as to the action the Commission would take in supervising the examiners. The Commission would be the administrative agency under this bill; it would not be the policymaking body.

The CHAIRMAN. What you do is take orders from the Attorney General? That is what you say?

Mr. MACY. We would follow the instructions of the Attorney General after he had made the certification that the examiner process was to be put into effect.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

Mr. MACY. Section 6(b) authorizes the Commission to promulgate regulations concerning the times, places, and procedures for listing of eligible applicants and for the removal of registrants from the elig bility list. These same general factors will also materially affect the regulations concerning times, places, and procedures for application listing and removal provided for in the same subsection. The latte: section also requires the Commission, after consultation with the At torney General, to instruct examiners concerning the qualification required for listing.

The basic duties of examiners are set out in section 5 and it subsections.

The CHAIRMAN. Is the Attorney General going to tell you whom t appoint as examiners?

Mr. MACY. No, sir, the Commission will, by its own authority unde this bill, appoint the examiners and assign them to the necessary duty The CHAIRMAN. What is your policy there on appointing examiner Mr. MACY. The qualifications I have a little further on in my state ment, if I may proceed, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. OK.

Mr. MACY. These provide that examiners shall: Examine applican: concerning their qualifications; decide their eligibility in accordan with instructions; list promptly those found eligible; certify an transmit such lists and supplements at the end of each month to th appropriate election official with copies to the Attorney General the United States and of the State concerned; issue a certificate each person listed as evidence of his eligibility to vote; remove, und specified circumstance, the names of persons from the eligibili lists; accept payment of the poll taxes, issue receipts therefor, at transmit such payment to authorized State or local officials.

The CHAIRMAN. Whom are you going to consult with to select t examiners?

Mr. MACY. The Commission will develop in accordance with personnel management experience in examining, the qualificat:

election itself and assign the examiner to the political subdivision where the bill is to be applied.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you consulted anyone at the present time on the appointment of examiners?

Mr. MACY. No, sir; there has been no preliminary consultation on it other than a discussion with officials in the Justice Department with espect to the legislation in general. Since I became aware of this ssignment in the bill to the Civil Service Commission, I have had a ask force within the Commission considering the processes and tandards that would be applied in the event the legislation was Dassed.

The CHAIRMAN. It would be the Democratic National Committee? Mr. MACY. No; as I indicate a little further in my statement, there would be no political test whatsoever. The Commission, as a merit ystem administrator, would continue to follow its nonpartisan merit tandards in administering the examiner program.

Under section 9(e), the examiner is also charged with the responibility of receiving complaints, made within 24 hours after the losing of the polls, from an eligible registrant that he has not been ermitted to vote or that his vote was not counted. If, in the opinion f the examiner, the complaint is well founded, it is conveyed to the S. attorney in the judicial district concerned. In section 6(a), proision is made for challenges to the listing made by the examiner. The Commission is responsible under this section to provide hearing fficers to hear and determine such challenges and also to prescribe regulation rules to govern the application of these provisions. Upon notice from the Attorney General under the conditions set orth in section 10, the Commission is required to terminate the listing rocedures.

The success of this program like any other enterprise of this magitude, obviously depends heavily on the quality of the people who tually perform the work. The examiner's job, as indicated above, one which requires people of maturity, unquestioned impartiality, d integrity. They must have such personal qualities as objectivity, atience, and tact. They must have the ability to analyze and decide sues of fact, to exercise sound judgment, and to meet and deal fectively with applicants, local officials, and others. They will need be people who can represent the Civil Service Commission with gnity and who are capable of inspiring confidence in the integrity the listing procedures. Their record of experience must have emonstrated a record of successful performance in a position of sponsibility and trust.

In keeping with the temporary nature of the assignment, selection ll not be based upon the usual open competitive civil service examation. However, no political test will be permitted.

As you can see, examiners will be required to possess the highest alifications. The number of examiners and the sepcific persons signated will be carefully tailored to the particular circumstances of e local community being served. The objective will be to use local idents when feasible. The overriding consideration, of course, will to employ those people who will be able to function in the best terest of the purpose of this bill.

Generally, we would propose to have a supervising examiner serving several counties. It would be his responsibility to supervise the examiners located at the level of the political subdivision.

The hearing officer provided for in section 6(a) will have respon sibilities of a quasi-judicial nature. He will require many of the same kinds of personal qualities and abilities which I described previously for an examiner, plus an ability to hold hearings in a judicial manner.

Our objective in each case will be to prescribe fair and lawful regu lations and procedures which will fulfill the responsibilities placed upon the Commission by this bill.

My colleagues and I recognize the importance of the tasks to be assigned to the Commission by this bill. If the bill is enacted into law, the Civil Service Commission will perform these tasks in such a fashion as to justify the confidence placed in it.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to offer this testi mony today. I shall be pleased to answer any questions you and other members of the committee will address to me.

The CHAIRMAN. How many registrars do you expect to appoint to a county?

Mr. MACY. This is difficult to ascertain at this date. It is, o course, the hope of everyone concerned with this legislation that ther will be widespread compliance and very limited requirements fo examiners. It is our view that the number would be determined by the time and the number of potential registrants in a given sui division, that in some areas, there would be greater needs than other I would say that as a general figure, we would feel about 100 ex aminers would be called for.

The CHAIRMAN. One hundred examiners?

Mr. MACY. This is a very tentative, preliminary figure. We fe about 100 examiners.

The CHAIRMAN. In how many States?

Mr. MACY. This is assuming that the seven States would be involved
The CHAIRMAN. So you feel 100 examiners would suffice?
Mr. MACY. That is correct, sir.

Senator ERVIN. And you on the Commission could appoint som carpetbaggers to come into 34 North Carolina counties and determin which citizens of North Carolina are qualified to vote and also pay on whether complaints of persons that have been denied the righ to vote in an election are just and meritorious or not, and then t pass on the question of challenges, could you not, under this bill!

Mr. MACY. Under this bill, Senator Ervin, the Commission's in tent would be to utilize to the maximum extent people in the localit to serve as examiners. This certainly would be desirable. Thi would be our view.

However, there may be some instances where it is not possible t secure voluntarily the services of examiners from a particular con munity. In that event, the legislation would permit the selection b the Commission of individuals meeting these qualifications from ou side.

Senator ERVIN. In other words, under the present form of th bill, the Commission would be given the power to appoint so

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