Mr. ALLEN. I want to ask you about road conditions. You introduced the automobile. Do you have any hard-surfaced roads?

Mr. DODGE. Yes; hard-surfaced roads have been developed over the past twenty-odd years. India has had certain road engineers over here. They have gone all over this country. They have studied concrete roads, gravel roads, hard-surfaced roads, roads of all kinds. They have not had the money in some areas to build the roads they wanted, but there have been a great many roads built. I do not know what the mileage of roads is today in India. I should say probably 150,000 miles of roads.

Mr. ALLEN. Hard-surfaced roads?

Mr. DODGE. Yes; hard-surfaced roads.

Mr. ALLEN. Part of them concrete?

Mr. DODGE. Yes; but the hard-surfaced road, you must remember, in India is not always a hard surface, because they have 4 months during which they get rains such as you have never seen here, and it washes the roads. They were hard-surfaced roads, but they are not always in good shape.

Mr. ALLEN. I mean by hard-surfaced roads, roads that are concrete, or macadam roads, or hard-surfaced roads with any material. Mr. DODGE. Anything except mud roads?

Mr. ALLEN. Yes.

Mr. DODGE. I think about 150,000 miles. That may be just a guess.

Mr. MASON. India is a large country.

Mr. ALLEN. Those improved sections are embraced in a small part of India?

Mr. DODGE. No. There is a road from Bombay to Delhi, a thousand miles, which you could call a fairly good road. Many people drive over it. India is not a country to tour in, because you get 4 months of rainy weather, when touring is unpleasant. Then you get 8 months when it is dry and the dust flies, and touring for pleasure is not in the cards.

Mr. ALLEN. You are very familiar with that situation. I want to ask you about the internal, not racial groups. I have understood in India there are many groups that probably do not affiliate so very much with each other.

Mr. DODGE. Well, of course I am not here to discuss the difference between the Hindus and the Mohammedans.

Mr. ALLEN. I am trying to find out

Mr. DODGE. There are those differences, of course. In many areas of India, you will find both Hindus and Mohammedans in the

same area.

Mr. ALLEN. The Hindus do not affiliate with the Mohammedan church?

Mr. DODGE. Not with the church; no.

Mr. ALLEN. Do any of the Hindus become Mohammedans?
Mr. DODGE. Never to my knowledge. I never knew one.

Mr. ALLEN. That has nothing to do with this question, but what is the basic religious faith of the Hindus as a race?

Mr. DODGE. That is a broad and deep subject, Congressman. It would take a long time to answer that question.

Mr. MASON. You are just a practical businessman, and know something about business conditions?

Mr. DODGE. That is all. I have never felt that it was my privilege to discuss the religion of a Hindu or Mohammedan, any more than I would discuss religion with any of you gentlemen.

Mr. ALLEN. I am only asking for information.

Mr. DODGE. I have developed a very intimate knowledge of the Indian businessman, because I have seen his rise. I now know his sons and nephews and his children. I know he is a man of as fine honor as anyone I have ever done business with, and I have done business with people all over the world.

I respect him. I entertain him at my home in New York. I entertain him for week ends and days in my own home in the summer in Vermont. He is a man I respect, and I dislike to feel that he is discriminated against.

You raise this question: Does a hundred mean anything? Yes, it means a lot to those people. It is that gesture, that feeling, "Now we are out of that class discrimination." They do not ask you to do other than what we have already done for many countries and nations. Mr. DOLLIVER. May I interject a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Do you consider, Mr. Dodge, that this quota of 100 is an entering wedge for a larger quota in later years?

Mr. DODGE. I cannot tell. None of us can predict the future very well, Mr. Dolliver.

Mr. DOLLIVER. I am just asking for your viewpoint.

Mr. DODGE. I think there are many countries with which the United States will have a great deal more trouble on quotas than India. I do not believe the Indians want to come here. I think the only people that will apply under the quota, unless some living in Mexico might want to get in, are business people in India. I believe they are the class that want to come here, want to meet us, a few industrialists, a fe in business. They want to come over here. I do not believe there would be any argument or row, if I could go back and face my friends and say, "The Congress has passed a bill, and put you out of this discriminatory class. You stand as well as anybody else. We are not going to make pets of you."

I certainly do not believe this bill should be passed giving citizenships to Indians who are here, even meeting all the regulations of immigration, and so forth, because that would not clear the situation up in India, in my opinion.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Mr. Dodge, you stated, as I understood you, that you had business relationships with other oriental people?

Mr. DODGE. Yes.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Do you believe this same privilege ought to be given to all orientals with whom we are at peace, for instance, the Javanese? Mr. DODGE. I would not want to answer that, Congressman Dolliver.

Mr. DOLLIVER. I do not insist. I am just asking you.

Mr. DODGE. I would prefer not to say.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Very well.

Mr. DODGE. I have visited Java many times, and Siam. I still call it Siam, although it is Thailand. And Malay. But it has never occurred to me those people were eager to go to other countries. The Chinese were the people who were anxious to go.

Mr. KEARNEY. May I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead, finish.

Mr. DODGE. I had the same experience in China in talking to my Chinese customers before this bill was passed. They would say: "How would you like to have your best customer say to you 'I am not going to buy from you any more, because you won't allow me to come into your home. I am not good enough for you. You can't come in'." The CHAIRMAN. Now Mr. Kearney wants to ask a question. Mr. DODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEARNEY. Mr. Dodge, I was particularly interested in the portion of your statement when you spoke about the Indians being people who, let us say, did not migrate, that they were home lovers, in other words.

Mr. DODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEARNEY. And you contrasted them, as I recall, with the Chinese.

Mr. DODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEARNEY. Now, as I remember the testimony in the hearings here on the repeal of the Chinese Exclusion Act, that very same thought was brought before this committee by eminent Chinese who testified here that the Chinese were also great home lovers and did not desire to migrate, and simply wanted that act repealed.

Mr. DODGE. Well, when you get into the immigration of the Chinese over the last 150 years, you get into a pretty deep subject. The fact remains that there are large populations of Chinese in many of the islands of the South Pacific, even small islands, and in the Dutch Indies and in Thailand and Malay. I will say they have all made fine citizens, the best merchants today in Malay and in the Dutch Indies are Chinese, and many of the best merchants in the Philippines are Chinese. I am not saying the Americans are not good merchants, or the British, or the Dutch. I am talking about the Chinese in the areas to which they went.

And, strangely enough, very few Chinese have ever migrated to India. There is not a large Chinese population in India. It was the lower classes of Chinese that migrated to these different countries.

The lower-class Indians have not migrated. And when I say the Indians are home loving, I mean the better class, the class above living just in hovels and off the ground. They like their home. They want to live there.

And I believe that India has so much at home to take care of all of its population, that they are not going to migrate. It would not surprise me if a lot of the Indians who have migrated, and I understand there are a few in Trinidad and in the West Indies, will go back.

Mr. MASON. Of course, Mr. Dodge, in view of the fact that this quota would not mean much, whether they are a migratory people or not, whether they are home loving or not, really does not enter into our consideration of this bill.

Mr. DODGE. That is true. The Indians want to feel that they can build themselves into a nation which will have the respect of the rest of the world, and should enjoy the peace and freedom that we are going to have after the war, we all hope.

Mr. ALLEN. Do you have any other nationalities in India to any appreciable extent, other than Chinese and British?

Mr. DODGE. No. British, yes, but a very, very limited number of Chinese.

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Mr. ALLEN. Are there many Americans there?

Mr. DODGE. I could not say at the present time. Generally speaking, I should think there might have been two or three thousand Americans living in India. But I can tell you before the war, and before the World War, there were at least 3,000 Americans who went to India every year on these touring ships carrying about five or six hundred people. They went all over India. They had a wonderful time, and saw everything. And it was the safest country in the world. I had my mother in India many years ago, with another lady. I met them in Bombay. And I said, "I am going to send you all over India." They asked me "Aren't you coming with us?" I said, "No; I am going to send you with an Indian servant who can speak sufficient English.'

He took them to the northern part of India, and back to Colombo and Ceylon. It was perfectly safe. I never thought about carrying a revolver. Sometimes they would not understand what I wanted. I did not speak the language well enough. But as far as the people were concerned, they were all friendly. And I cannot stress too much my opinion of the development of the Indian merchants.

Mr. ALLEN. Do you not have a number of dialects in India?
Mr. DODGE. Yes.

Mr. ALLEN. And some of them can hardly understand each other?
Mr. DODGE. There are many dialects.

Mr. ARNOLD. Before you leave, is it your idea, and the idea of your organization also, that if we pass this bill it will encourage business relations and will sell more goods in India?

Mr. DODGE. I feel very confident that it will create a friendly spirit and feeling among the Indians toward the United States, and toward American goods. Competition will be much keener after the war. There are a lot of countries that think they are going to take all the business. Mr. Roosevelt said this country has to have fourteen billions of export trade. We have kept our offices open.

Mr. ARNOLD. We are going to need the business.

Mr. DODGE. I think so. I think the foreign trade is going to be very valuable.

Mr. ARNOLD. That phase of it should enter into the consideration of this bill?

Mr. DODGE. I think so.

Mr. CELLER. Not only has their comment been most widespread in favor of this bill, but the Indian government has come out in favor of the bill, and has indicated in no uncertain language that it would create a tremendous entente cordiale between this country and India, and would give tremendous impetus to mutual trade between the two countries. The government has said that.

Mr. DOLLIVER. I would like to ask you about the American Asiatic Association, of which you are an officer.

Mr. DODGE. No; I am not an officer. I am a member.
Mr. DOLLIVER. Is that a commercial organization?

Mr. DODGE. Well, it was organized largely by people who had an interest in seeing where foreign trade could be developed in the different parts of the Orient.

Mr. CELLER. I think Mr. Grew, the Secretary of State, is a member of the Board?

Mr. DODGE. Yes; Mr. Grew is.

The CHAIRMAN. You may call your next witness.

Mr. CELLER. Mr. Chairman, there are seven more witnesses.

The CHAIRMAN. Are these witnesses from out of town?

Mr. CELLER. They do not live in Washington.

Mr. MASON. Could you have them here tomorrow?

Mr. CELLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It has been the policy of this committee to try to accommodate witnesses who come here from out of town.

Mr. CELLER. They can be here tomorrow.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, then, we will adjourn until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 12 noon, the hearing was adjourned until 10 a. m. of the following day, Thursday, March 8, 1945.)