STATEMENT OF J. HARVIE WILLIAMS, SECRETARY, AMERICAN GOOD GOVERNMENT SOCIETY, WASHINGTON, D.C. Mr. WILLIAMS. The American Good Government Society is a corporation under the laws of the District of Columbia. It is a nonprofit research and educational organization. It has 11 trustees. We are interested in fundamental constitutional questions. The charter states that we shall work in behalf of the principles on which the Constitution of the United States is based. That suits me fine because that is my major interest, the fundamental principles on which our political society is organized. Senator KEFAUVER. The discussion of the pros and cons of the electoral reforms, does that occupy a major part of your work? Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it has it has at times. You see, sometimes the question is timely and sometimes it is not. Right now it is engaging all of our attention. We have in process, now before an editorial board, a 5,000-word brochure on this subject which discusses the subject and describes the proposals to change the present setup. I trust that we will have that in print in the next 2 or 3 weeks. It is educational, too. Senator KEFAUVER. It will be published? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Senator KEFAUVER. All right, sir, you may proceed. Senator KEFAUVER. Yes. Mr. WILLIAMS. I have heard most of the testimony here. I have thought that all of us have seen much of the same material and sources of information, but I have been really surprised at the difference in what each of us have seen, looking at the same thing. Senator KEFAUVER. That often is very true. Mr. WILLIAMS. It reminded me of the fable about the five blind men feeling the elephant and then describing him. Senator KEFAUVER. That represents independent thinking, reaching different conclusions from the same facts. Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right. When I heard Senator Mundt tell this committee that more than 325 million votes were cast in New York in the 1960 presidential election by something over 7 million voters, I was prompted to write to the secretary of state of the State of New York and ask for the "actual vote for each elector candidate of each party." Under date of June 16, 1961, I received a reply from the New York secretary of state, Mrs. Caroline K. Simon, enclosing a printed copy of an affidavit entitled, "Statement of the whole number of votes cast for all the candidates for the office of elector of President and Vice President, at a general election held in said State on the 8th day of November, 1960." The affidavit then states: The whole number of votes given for the office of elector of President and Vice President was 331,590,904. The affidavit then lists the elector candidates of each of the four parties appearing and shows the number of votes received by each. The two major parties, Republican and Democrat, had full slates of elector candidates, 45 in number. The Liberal Party also had a full slate of elector candidates which was identical with the 45 elector candidates of the Democratic Party. The fourth party, the Socialist Worker Party, filed a slate of only 10 elector candidates. It should be noted in passing that the State of New York requires the party State committees to nominate two elector candidates at large and one from each of its congressional districts. Nevertheless, each voter in New York can vote for the entire 45 elector candidates since they run on a general ticket. Where voting machines were used, the voter pulled one lever and cast 45 votes. In Virginia, where I voted in 1960, each elector candidate of each party had his own lever on the voting machine. Therefore I actually cast 12 votes in the presidential election, one by one. Virginia, like New York, requires that the party candidates for elector be nominated: one from each congressional district, and two at large. Like New York, they are elected on a general ticket in that each voter may vote for 12 electors. In New York they can vote a straight party ticket on the paper ballot or they can mark each one or they can write in. Senator KEFAUVER. By checking 1 place they can vote for all 45 at once? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. Senator KEFAUVER. But if they wish they can go down the list? Mr. WILLIAMS. And mark each one of them individually, or if it is a paper ballot they can mark some and omit others. Actually, there is a difference of two votes between the top and bottom Republican and Democratic electors, in each case. How they got in there, I do not know, but that is the way it was reported. I understand that in your State of Tennessee the parties are required to nominate one elector candidate from each congressional district, and two from the State at large; and that a single act of voting for the party ticket is counted as a vote for each of the elector candidates. Senator KEFAUVER. That is right, at least, on the voting machines, where you pull the one lever. I am sure that you count that in the paper ballots, too. Mr. WILLIAMS. The Library of Congress produced something last year on this. I checked that just the other day. I believe that Samuel H. Still was the man. In the five presidential elections, 1932 to 1948, inclusive, in which I voted in New York, I had almost four times the votes in presidential elections that I now have; and a little more than four times the votes you have in Tennessee. My basic position on electoral college reform is that the elective branches of the National Government should be based on the same principles of representation. By this, I mean that if the electoral votes of a State are to be counted as a block, its Representatives in Congress should be elected on a general ticket; that if the Representatives are to be elected in districts, that the corresponding presidential elector should be elected in a district; and if the electoral vote or the presidential electors are chosen on a proportional basis, the Representatives in Congress should be chosen in a like manner. The committee has heard a good bit about gerrymandering of congressional districts, all to the effect that the people were not fairly represented as between rural and urban populations. The Congres sional Quarterly has stated that if the transfer of seats in the House of Representatives were made from the rural areas to the urban areas to produce more equitable representation, that the urban populations would gain only 15 of the 437 seats in the House of Representativesfewer than 32 percent. I submit, therefore, that the general ticket method of choosing presidential electors constitutes gerrymandering in its worst conceivable form and in the ultimate degree. It gerrymanders the United States into two political countries within one national boundary, a circumstance that has split both major parties. We have a presidential United States of America and a congressional United States of America which I would like to see the same. May I offer for the record Mrs. Simon's letter and its attachment? Senator KEFAUVER. That will be made a part of the record. (The documents referred to are as follows:) STATE OF NEW YORK, DEPARTMENT OF STATE, Albany, June 16, 1961. Mr. J. HARVIE WILLIAMS, Secretary, American Good Government Society, DEAR MR. WILLIAMS: I am pleased to comply with your request for the "actual vote for each elector candidate of each party." The enclosed tabulation, you will note, lists all electors of President and Vice President for the State of New York who were voted upon at the November 1960 election. As soon as the 1961 edition of the New York State election law is received from the printer, about July 1, a copy will be sent to you with my compliments. We are always glad to be of service. Sincerely, STATE OF NEW YORK, 88: CAROLINE K. SIMON, Statement of the whole number of votes cast for all the candidates for the office of elector of President and Vice President, at a general election held in said State on the eighth day of November 1960. The whole number of votes given for the office of elector of President and Vice President was 331,590,904, of which Helen A. Sharkey. William H. Morgan.... 3, 423, 908 3, 423, 908 3, 423, 908 3, 423, 908 R. Risley Dent, Jr. 406, 176 3, 423, 909 Edward D. Re____ 406, 176 3, 423, 908 3, 423, 908 Henry A. Toppin_. 3, 423, 908 John C. O'Brien.. 406, 176 Averell Harriman. Arthur Levitt___ 406, 176 Constance F. Weissman.. 14, 319 Herbert H. Lehman__- Michael H. Prendergast- Carmine G. DeSapio---- 406, 176 Blank, void, and scatter 406, 176 Given under our hands at the department of state in the city of Albany, the 12th day of December in the year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and sixty. Senator KEFAUVER. I do not fully understand the attachment. The same names appear to be in both columns. Mr. WILLIAMS. Above them are the Republicans. You see the way they are lined up in New York, the party that elected the Governor gets the top line on the voting machine-it is listed first in the reporting. And then the Democratic electors begin with Van Arsdale. He and the former Governor, Mr. Harriman, were the two electors at large, and then follows the district electors in the order of their districts. Senator KEFAUVER. Then you have the Liberal Party electors? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. And they are identical with the Democratic electors. Senator KEFAUVER. On the voting machine, when you voted for either the Democratic Party or the Liberal Party candidates, you voted for the same electors? Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right. The ballot on the voting machine read, "Republican electors for Nixon and Lodge," and then right below that in the vertical column, "Democratic electors for Kennedy and Johnson." And then the Liberal Party. And there, “Liberal Party electors for Kennedy and Johnson." Senator KEFAUVER. There seems to be only a difference of two at the most in the votes of many of the electors. Mr. WILLIAMS. On each party, that is right. The Liberals were exactly the same all the way. The Socialist Labor are exactly the same. But there were two votes difference between the top and the bottom in the Democratic electors. Senator KEFAUVER. And, also, in the Republican electors? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Senator KEFAUVER. That was because in some places they voted for individuals, I guess? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. Senator KEFAUVER. They checked each one of them, rather than voting in bloc? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. You will notice in the total, Senator, that there is "blank, void, and scattering," right down before the totals in the last column. They are required in reporting to take their total vote cast, the number of voters that used the ballots, the voting machine or the paper ballots, and multiply it by 45, and then they come up with the difference, which is the blank, void, and scattered. There is something like a half a million of that blank vote which is due to the fact that the Socialist Worker Party did not nominate a full slate. Senator KEFAUVER. On the so-called district plan, have you an opinion on that? That is Senate Joint Resolution 12. Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. This is pretty much my personal view. The American Good Government Society does not support anything. It just tries to explain the whole situation. But apropos of Senate Joint Resolution 12 it needs a little amendment if that were going to be what the committee reports, because now the State legislatures have complete control over the appointment of the electors, and each State has a provision for the filling of vacancies if an elector should die after he is elected and before he performs his duty, or if he is absent and does not make the meeting, the electors there can fill the vacancy. |