Mr. KASTENMEIER. The last witness I'd like to call on today is the president of the American Society of Newspaper Editors, Mr. Loren Ghiglione, who is also editor and publisher of the News of Southbridge, MA, and heads a notable organization, which over the years has had to fight for first amendment rights vis-a-vis the Government, and particularly the executive branch.

We are delighted, even though perhaps the most immediate experience is regrettable, nonetheless to have you here and to speak to us. Mr. Ghiglione.

Mr. FRANK. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. Yes.

Mr. FRANK. If I'm permitted, it is unfortunate I'm not going to be able to return after this roll call. If I could have the indulgence, I just want to underline one point—a very relevant point for both of the two previous witnesses.

There is a proposal that we are told is going to come from the Senate. Senator Simpson has said that his intention is that while we should change McCarran-Walter, we should change it only with regard to tourists and that we should not change it with regard to permanent residents.

I think it is important to underline the ill effects such a restrictive approach would have-it would leave Mrs. Eways absolutely unprotected and I believe Mr. Yatani as well.

Second, when we met in subcommittee to deal with this bill, and it's been noted the subcommittee reported the bill out 7 to 3, an amendment was offered on behalf of the minority, supported by three of the four minority members, which would have specifically reinstated the Communist provision that has been a problem to Mrs. Eways.

So I think we ought to be clear that while to most of us this looks like the kind of embarrassment that we ought quickly to abolish, there are, unfortunately, colleagues of ours who want to keep either or both of those provisions around.

I just want to underline those points because we will be fighting and voting in the full Judiciary Committee on precisely those points. I welcome this testimony as evidence that what we're trying to do is the right thing.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. As a matter of fact, this is the first ring of a vote on the House floor. It might make, with the witness' forbearing, it might make more sense to recess for 10 minutes and to return

Mr. FRANK. Let me just apologize to Mr. Ghiglione, because he's my neighbor. He's a little to the west of me but we share a Rhode Island border, just around the corner. But I apologize for not being able to listen; he's done excellent work in this regard.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. The committee will be in recess for 10 minutes.

[Recess.]

Mr. KASTENMEIER. The committee will reconvene. I am delighted my colleague from New Jersey could join me. We were about to hear from Mr. Ghiglione. His capacity is president of the American Society of Newspaper Editors. Mr. Ghiglione.

STATEMENT OF LOREN F. GHIGLIONE, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN SOCIETY OF NEWSPAPER EDITORS AND EDITOR AND PUBLISHER, THE NEWS, SOUTHBRIDGE, MA

Mr. GHIGLIONE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The American Society of Newspaper Editors [ASNE] is a nonprofit, nationwide, professional organization of more than 1,000 directing editors of daily newspapers throughout the United States and Canada.

I've been asked to state that the Society of Professional Journalists also joins in these remarks.

Mr. Chairman, I'll try to summarize, but I ask that my complete statement be included in the record.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. Without objection, your statement, and indeed, those statements submitted by all members of this panel will appear in their entirety in the record.

Mr. GHIGLIONE. Thank you.

Because of ASNE's firm support of first amendment freedoms for all, our annual convention programs present to the assembled editors as broad a range of views as possible, from both within and without the United States, on diverse matters of public interest.

In planning our 1989 convention, which was recently concluded here in Washington, it was decided that we would invite Fidel Castro of Cuba to speak to ASNE because this year marks the 30th anniversary of both Cuban revolution and Mr. Castro's initial visit to the United States, during which he was a guest speaker at our convention.

On June 21 of last year, the ASNE Convention program chair, Jim Squires, editor of the Chicago Tribune, issued a letter of invitation to Mr. Castro.

In early December 1988, Mr. Squires, together with both the executive director and the then-president of ASNE, met with Manuel Davis, the Cuban Interest Section Representative in Washington, who informed them that President Castro was favorably inclined to accept the invitation but would not want the indignity of applying for a visa and being refused.

On December 13, a letter was written to James Baker, the Secretary of State-designate, requesting a 5-minute meeting for the purpose of discussing the subject, which was described only as one of urgency to ASNE and sensitivity to the Department of State.

We do not know whether Mr. Baker ever received the letter, since we were later informed by one of his assistants that the letter had in fact been lost.

One of our convention committee members told Charles Redmond, the State Department spokesman, what we wanted to discuss with Mr. Baker and again requested a meeting. This produced a meeting in March of this year with Michael Kozak, Under Secretary of State for Latin American Affairs, which was attended by Mr. Squires and two members of his committee.

At this meeting, Mr. Kozak stated that the Department had considered the ASNE request and regretted to inform us that it would not relax its travel ban and grant a visa to President Castro or any other Cuban official for the purpose of talking to ASNE.

At this time, we were receiving almost daily inquiries from representatives of Daniel Ortega of Nicaragua regarding the possibility of an invitation for him to speak at the convention. Mr. Kozak was asked if the State Department's reaction to Mr. Ortega would be the same as it had been to Mr. Castro. We were informed that it would indeed be the same.

The State Department suggested that ASNE might wish to invite President Barco of Colombia, an invitation it would support and even help expedite. The Department threw in the possibility that, if President Barco came, the Secretary of State might also attend to make a major policy statement on South America or the drug problem.

President Barco was invited, agreed to come, and subsequently addressed ASNE regarding the drug problem.

Secretary of State Baker also was invited to address the convention and subsequently delivered a speech on U.S. foreign policy.

Unfortunately, we had to inform Manuel Davis of the Cuban Interest Section that Mr. Castro's visa would be opposed and, consequently, the ASNE invitation to Mr. Castro was withdrawn. Mr. Ortega was never officially invited to the convention.

When questioned at the convention as to the reasons for the State Department's position on Mr. Castro and Mr. Ortega, Secretary Baker explained that it was U.S. policy to isolate Cuba and Nicaragua, and that visas for the leaders of these countries would be denied in order to deny them a prominent forum to expound their views.

Ironically, Vice President Quayle, speaking to ASNE on the same day as Secretary Baker, called on American editors to "shine a spotlight on Nicaragua" to ensure that its Government would fulfill its pledges to democratize.

His audience of editors could not help but wonder what better opportunity would there have been to put Mr. Ortega to the test than to have him appear before the convention and to be questioned by American newspaper editors. The Vice President's response was to suggest that we could travel to Nicaragua and question Mr. Ortega there.

If I as the editor of a 7,000-circulation newspaper may be permitted a somewhat personal response to the Vice President's suggestion, I would remind the committee that the U.S. press is unlike that of many other nations. It is essentially local-provincial, not national. Half the country's dailies have a circulation of 20,000 or less.

While I and other small-town editors have made reporting trips to Nicaragua, the Middle East, southern Africa and other newsworthy parts of the world, we do not have the resources or clout to travel to Nicaragua and interview Mr. Ortega on a regular basis. In the age of the internationalization of environmental, health, economic as well as political issues, ASNE performs a valuable service at its conventions in Washington by creating an opportunity for its members to hear and to question face-to-face world leaders, whatever their views.

ASNE and other press organizations have worked not only within the United States but throughout the world, with organizations such as the Inter-American Press Association, the World

Press Freedom Committee and other free press groups active in the international field, to ensure the free flow of information to peoples of all nations. We will continue in these efforts at every opportunity.

It is clear, however, that we are hindered in our arguments against the so-called new world information order and other nations' thinly disguised censorship efforts when our own Government wields the visa denial as its own oppressive and restrictive censorial authority in apparent fear of allowing free speech to foreign nationals within the United States.

How in good conscience can the United States and the American press demand access to leaders in other nations and demand the free flow of information in other parts of the world when we practice exclusion and censorship to bar foreign leaders from presenting their views to people in the United States?

Finally, any argument that there are alternative means of permitting the views of such foreign leaders to reach an American audience should be viewed with the utmost skepticism in light of the clear mandate of the first amendment.

When the Government, in denying a visa to a Belgian scholar, argued that U.S. academicians would have access to the scholar's ideas through books, speeches, and technological developments such as tapes or telephone hookups, Justice Blackmun, speaking for the Supreme Court, rejected this position for overlooking the particular qualities inherent in sustained, face-to-face debate, discussion and questioning.

Frankly, we simply do not see how the opportunity for such faceto-face debate, discussion and questioning with respect to foreign individuals who are invited to this country for that purpose can be denied to the American press and the American people consistent with the first amendment.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Ghiglione follows:]

Statement of Loren F. Ghiglione, President, American Society of Newspaper Editors, before the Subcommittee on Courts, Intellectual Property and the Administration of Justice of the Committee on the Judiciary U.S. House of Representatives, May 3, 1989.

My name is Loren F. Ghiglione. I am Editor of The News, Southbridge, Massachusetts. I appear before this Committee as president of the American Society of Newspaper Editors. The American Society of Newspaper Editors (ASNE) is a nonprofit, nationwide, professional organization of more than 1,000 persons who hold positions as directing editors of daily newspapers throughout the United States and Canada. ASNE's purpose includes improving the manner in which journalists carry out their responsibility to provide an unfettered and effective press in the service of the American people.

ASNE has long been concerned about the provisions of the McCarran-Walter Act that have prevented foreign leaders and other foreign nationals from entering the United States as nonimmigrant aliens in response to invitations from various U.S. groups to address to them on matters considered controversial by many, if not most, Americans.

In 1987, ASNE supported an amendment offered by Senators Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Nancy Kassebaum, and Paul Simon to the proposed Foreign Relations Authorization Act for Fiscal Years 1988 and 1989. The Amendment prohibited the exclusion or deportation of aliens from the United States "because of any past, current or expected beliefs, statements or