Senator FREAR. Yes.

Mayor WALZ. We have quite a large number of widows who, the home having been paid for and they having some return by way of pension or social security, are able to continue living there.

However, if their homes are taken, they then are faced with the necessity-and this applies, of course, to what we refer to as the popular A project for the city's slum clearance and urban renewal program— of taking the money they get from that property and attempting to buy comparable housing, which is not available in the same price bracket. They do not have sufficient income to finance the additional payments that they will be required due to that price differential.

Senator FREAR. That is an extremely interesting point. As you have said, of course, these homes were built when the cost of construction was not as great as it is today.

Mayor WALZ. That is right.

Senator FREAR. Those people with fixed incomes, how are they going to pay the difference if they are required to move from their present homes into homes that are going to cost them more money? As you said, not only the downpayment but the other payments are going to be higher than their present budget will accommodate. Mayor WALZ. That is the reason I pointed out, before you came in, Senator, the restrictive requirements of section 221 which restrict the mortgage to a maximum of $10,000. It is not tailored to meet this situation.

The same thing is true down in the blighted area that the city has set up as their renewal project to a little different degree, where 22 percent of the housing is owner occupied. The other percentage is all rental property. As a matter of fact, and this sounds rather strange, properties in that neighborhood of less state of preservation will run into a higher price bracket due to their income-producing potential. Obviously, of course, we are not too much concerned about that prospect as we are about homeowners. The homeowner who must give up his home and then face the necessity of financing equal accommodations in a higher-price bracket is entitled to some consideration.

As I pointed out to Senator Douglas, the Federal Highway Act makes no provision for taking care of displaced persons whose homes are taken by virtue of this program, so that the impact of that is going to fall on our housing authorities. It is going to increase the volume of housing that is going to be required over and beyond what was originally anticipated.

Senator FREAR. In addition to the normal problems of heavy flow of new population into Delaware, you are also having to recruit homes or get homes for these people that might be displaced by the Interstate Highway System?

Mayor WALZ. That is true.

Senator FREAR. Which complicates the problem as far as Wilmington is concerned and I have no doubt complicates the problem of other municipalities.

Mayor WALZ. That is true. We had originally anticipated additional rental housing in the next 2 years to the extent of 1,600 units would be required. It is not available, and there is no place it can be found presently. With this Federal highway program, that will be increased to anywhere from 2,000 to 2,500, all depending on the route and other factors that are related to it.

Senator FREAR. I know or I suspect, Mayor, you and your committee up there have had the opportunity of talking with the Highway Commission. It is the Highway Commission that prescribes the route? Mayor WALZ. The Highway Commission. That is right.

Senator FREAR. Have they attempted in any manner to see if it was feasible or not to go through what are the so-called blighted areas or substandard home areas in lieu of the homes that are presently wellsuited for occupancy?

Mayor WALZ. May I answer that in this way: I am advised that the route selected out of several that were contemplated requires the dislocation of fewer homes-that is, the tearing down of fewer homesthan the other routes.

Additionally, a route through our blighted area would not serve the needs of an express or throughway because of the slum areas that are located in that part of the city through which it would not be, from an engineering point of view, logical or feasible to locate such a route.

Senator FREAR. As you know, I am not an engineer. Neither am I an expert on the placement of interstate highways. My knowledge of Wilmington and surroundings is also limited. But the blighted area or the popular A area is the east side of Market Street, and I have heard others mention a proposed route up the west side of the river but near the river. It may displace many homes. But in the end would it not be more economical to have a highway which would reduce the blighted area to some extent for rehousing development somewhere else?

I also admit that we cannot base this entirely on the economics of the highway system or of the Wilmington Housing Authority, because there are other purposes for the interstate highway other than to take care of blighted areas where that is possible. However, where it is possible, if you can do both of those things with the single objective, it would seem desirable.

Mayor WALZ. As I understand the engineering studies, the route to which you refer is the one along the eastern edge of the city of Wilmington along the bank of the Delaware River.

Senator FREAR. Yes.

Mayor WALZ. I am told by the engineers that that route would serve as a bypass route for through-commercial traffic. It would have only a limited use or serve a limited purpose as far as traffic in the city is concerned.

The study of desire lines, as they call them in these engineering studies, indicates that people taking that route would only take it because they wanted to go through or around the city and not to some destination within the city. That route would be outside of the blighted area.

Senator FREAR. Oh, would it?

Mayor WALZ. It would, yes. To bring it closer in, as I understand, is not considered by the engineers to be a sound location.

Senator FREAR. As I said, I do not profess to be an engineer so I will perhaps have to rely on the information that you have brought us on the theories and the thinking.

Mayor WALZ. I must rely on the engineers too because I am not an engineer either.

Senator FREAR. As has been said, it is a very difficult problem either

way.

Mayor WALZ. There is one point I might clarify, and I believe, Senator Douglas, you had some reference to it. It was with respect to the Federal-local relations.

The only way I can point out what I have in mind in that connection is the fact that in our project area the original plan called for the rebuilding of certain streets located in the area, and the HHFA decided or recommended that the plan be reduced by $600,000 and that the existing streets be not rebuilt but merely resurfaced.

The recommendation is predicated upon a lack of knowledge concerning the streets. The area under consideration is one that is nearly a hundred years old, and the streets have been down nearly that long. They are of cobblestone construction or of yellow brick. The sewer and water mains in the streets have been there for almost the same length of time. I would not be a bit surprised that some of them might still be of the old wooden log type of water main. I would not be a bit surprised if some of those turned up in the course of excavations.

So that putting a new surface on would not meet that requirement, because in any construction in the area the streets of necessity would have to be opened to make new or additional connections to existing sewer and water mains. The net result would be that we would probably have no streets in the area on which we would be spending approximately $2 million to rebuild, and we would need up with probably a worse slum than the one we started with.

Senator DOUGLAS. It has been your feeling, then, that, Mayor Walz, the Housing and Home Finance Agency has not been fully understanding about the problems which you face in urban renewal and slum clearance in Wilmington?

Mayor WALZ. That is correct; yes.

Senator DOUGLAS. That has been the general complaint over the country, I think. I have expressed myself publicly in the presence of the Housing and Home Finance Agency people so, therefore, I do not think it is improper for me to state in their absence that I think this program has been given halfhearted service by the present administration of the Housing and Home Finance Agency. That they have not really believed in it and have not really put themselves out to carry it through. I think this has created some of the difficulties which the cities have experienced.

Mayor WALZ. I suppose that one might say that the cooperation that the cities have been getting has been less than sympathetic and enthusiastic.

Senator DOUGLAS. You can say that, can you?

Mayor WALZ. I have felt a frustration for the last 4 years in connection with this program because each time we felt that we had met each and every requirement there has been a new set of regulations or a revision that would come out. I suppose the only way I could express it was there was always that additional bridge that must be crossed before we were ready to sign the contract.

Senator DOUGLAS. We have had the same feeling of frustration here; those of us who are very anxious that this program should go on seem to get no sympathetic response from the Housing and Home Finance Agency, so that we feel frustrated too. I wondered whether this was myopia on our part or whether

Mayor WALZ. No; I have noticed, and in my consultations with mayors in other parts of the country they have indicated they have had similar experiences.

Are there any further questions, gentlemen? That is all I have. Senator FREAR. You have not finished, have you?

Mayor WALZ. I meant to mention the capital grant requirements. May I take a minute?

Senator DOUGLAS. Oh, yes, sir.

Mayor WALZ. The only further remark that I might make is in connection with the capital grant planning at the present time. It seems that, as I understand, there is a capital grant that the housing association has come up with as a minimum requirement in their studies of this problem. It has led them to conclude that it would require $500 million for each of the next 2 years. I have not had available to me the basis that they use to arrive at those figures. I do know that currently within the first 6 months of this fiscal year practically all of the capital grant funds allocated were absorbed by the plans that were submitted for approval and for allocation of capital grant funds, and that applications currently have been at a standstill, and no further applications will be received, I am advised. So that where we go from here is rather difficult to determine.

But, in concluding, may I point out again that the capital grant aspects of the problem are going to be more important in the light of what we have discussed here in connection with the Federal highway program and that a realistic evaluation of the needs must be made in the light of that program if we are to meet the impact of the ever-growing vehicular traffic that adds to the blight, one might say, in our municipal areas.

Do the members have any further questions?

Senator FREAR. Any further questions, Senator Douglas?
Senator DOUGLAS. No.

Senator FREAR. May I on behalf of the chairman express his gratitude and that of the subcommittee to you and to Mrs. Weaver and to Mr. Finch and to Judge Herlihy who are with you today for the unlimited time that you have given and your generous cooperation. We thank you very much. You made a splendid presentation, and we are sure it will add to the testimony that has been given here. My attention has just been called to the fact that your entire statement will be made a matter of record, Mayor Walz.

Mayor WALZ. Thank you for your kind remarks.
Senator FREAR. Thank you for appearing.

Mayor WALZ. I am only too happy to be of service to the committee at any time.

Senator FREAR. I have always found you very generous in your time when it relates to the humanitarian welfare of the city of Wilmington and also to the county in which the city is located. Mayor WALZ. Thank you very much, sir.

(The balance of Mayor Walz' prepared statement follows:)

A release from the Housing and Home Finance Agency, on February 8, shows that the large flow of applications is greatly exceeding estimates for the fiscal year. Of the presently available $900 million authorization, over $852 million is already committed or reserved. In addition to the 75 applications for planning advances already approved during the first half of this fiscal year, 50

submissions are pending. It is to be expected that the last half of the fiscal year would normally show an equal or greater submission of applications. However, in the light of the financial picture, local public agencies have been advised by the Federal Agency that priorities have been established for processing applications for loan and grant contracts, and stringent review will be made to offset increases necessitated by rising costs and the addition of relocation grants. The language of the new directives leads to an interpretation of increasing pressure to force a reduction of size and cost of such projects. At the same time, there will be a moratorium called on processing new applications for survey and planning except for disaster areas.

I would like to add here, parenthetically, that all the language now included in advice from the Federal Agency relating to the proposed methods of processing applications in the light of the tight financial situation is further evidence of Federal intervention and dictation of type, scope, cost, and size of projects. I cannot make my plea too strong for the necessity of keeping capital grant authority up to the original proposal of the Administration to allow planning to accelerate to the speed that must be attained by cities if there is to be realistic hope of making some headway against the wave of blight.

There is now added the need to recognize the awesome impact of highway building on urban life and every effort must be made to insure that these two federally aided programs are not stumbling blocks for one another but, rather, join forces to solve the complex of urban problems.

Senator FREAR. These hearings will recess and reconvene in Room P-38 in the Capitol Building, the reason being, of course, that the Senate is in session and live quorums are being called frequently. P-38 is in the District of Columbia Committee room right next to the reception room in the Capitol. We will resume in approximately 10 minutes.

(Whereupon, at 11: 10 a. m., the subcommittee recessed, and reconvened in room P-38, Capitol Building.)

Senator DOUGLAS. The chairman has very graciously conferred upon me the honor of acting as chairman when we have witnesses from Illinois. We are very pleased to have with us at this time the mayor of Decatur and a number of very fine citizens from that city who have come to testify about the bill, S. 1479, which I have introduced concerned with the Jasper Homes project of that city.

It gives me a great deal of pleasure to introduce the Honorable Clarence A. Sablotny, mayor of Decatur.

Senator SPARKMAN. Before the mayor starts, I would like to make a statement. I am under solemn pledge to have this room cleared by 12:30.

Senator DOUGLAS. The chairman will try to curtail his natural loquaciousness, then, and not ask too many questions of the witness. STATEMENT OF CLARENCE A. SABLOTNY, MAYOR; ACCOMPANIED BY DON F. DAVIS, DIRECTOR, DECATUR HOUSING AUTHORITY; HENRY H. BOLZ, SECRETARY, ASSOCIATION OF COMMERCE; AND ROGER P. POGUE, CHAIRMAN, URBAN RENEWAL COMMITTEE, DECATUR, ILL.

Mayor SABLOTNY. Senator Douglas, Senator Sparkman, this statement is in reference to legislation concerning what is known as the Jasper Homes project in the city of Decatur, Macon County, Ill.

This project was a war housing project. The city of Decatur was the center of extensive war production during the late war. The Caterpillar Tractor Co. of Peoria operated what was known as the victory plant northeast of Decatur; the Sangamon ordnance plant