Mr. MELCHER. Mr. Bruce, what was the first time that you were in the building?

Mr. BRUCE. Friday morning I came into the building, about 11 o'clock.

Mr. MELCHER. Were there any weapons that you saw?

Mr. BRUCE. I did not see any weapon then. I did see clubs.

Mr. MELCHER. Were there any threats that you know of to anyone? Did any of the Indians make any threats?

Mr. BRUCE. On me?

Mr. MELCHER. To anyone.

Mr. BRUCE. Not that I know of. No, not that I know of. I didn't hear any.

Mr. MELCHER. Mr. Loesch had been in the building on Thursday? Mr. BRUCE. Yes.

Mr. MELCHER. Mr. Loesch, as I understand your testimony, you did not notice any weapons on Thursday.

Mr. LOESCH. No, sir. I was in the building on two occasions on Thursday, both of them for some period of time. The first time I went over there about 9 o'clock or a little afterward, and I went to a meeting in Mr. Crow's office. It started as a small meeting, but before long, a few minutes, the room was very crowded. As I said, it became a sort of confrontational type of thing, but not threatening. Sort of demanding but not threatening. I felt disliked but not uncomfortable, if you get what I mean. Then I went from there down to the auditorium, and I made a little talk at their request and answered some questions at their request, and again it was not exactly what I would call the friendliest meeting I have ever been to, but it was by no means threatening or unpleasant. It was a little bit adversary, but not bad. At neither of those occasions was there any threat or any visible weaponry, or indeed any hard position that I could discern of violation of the law.

I went back to my office about 11:30, I believe; and later in the day, about 3 o'clock, I went back to report on what I had agreed to do, which was to explore whether or not there were other accommodations that could be made available to people. At this time I went into Commissioner Bruce's office where the leadership of the Trail of Broken Treaties was, and there were about 15 or 16-I didn't count thema group of about that size in the office. Again I reported rather negatively the only thing we could get for them in the way of accommodations was the interdepartmental auditorium. They were not happy with that idea, but again no threats, nothing at all, except that as I left there, one of them said, "We will just stay here" or words to that effect. But there were no weapons visible, nor any threats of any kind. Again, I had a good, solid suspicion at that time that they might stay in the building against our will, but certainly I didn't feel threatened either personally or vicariously, you might say.

Mr. MELCHER. Mr. Bruce, you were not in town on Thursday?

Mr. BRUCE. I was back Thursday. I had an appointment to meet with two tribal chairmen for lunch, and I didn't get into the office actually-you are talking about Thursday?

Mr. MELCHER. Yes.

Mr. BRUCE. I didn't get into the office at all that day because I went to that meeting in Secretary Loesch's office. That is, Thursday night.

Mr. MELCHER. Were you in on the decision or the intention of Secretary Loesch to clear the building after the meeting was supposedly over at 9 or 10 o'clock? Were you consulted on that?

Mr. BRUCE. Yes, I was.

Mr. MELCHER. What was your feeling?

Mr. BRUCE. My feeling was that if we were to make any decision at all, it should not be made at 11 or 12 o'clock at night, to put them out, since you had a lot of women and children.

Mr. MELCHER. What were your thoughts prior to that time?

Mr. BRUCE. I thought if we were to do it at all, if any decision were to be made, it should have been made earlier in the afternoon. That is why I hoped that maybe that 8 o'clock meeting could have been moved up to 4:30 or 5 o'clock.

Mr. MELCHER. You concurred, then, with Assistant Secretary Loesch's intention to clear the building somewhere around 9 or 10 o'clock?

Mr. BRUCE. I don't know whether I concurred with him then, but that would have been my reaction.

Mr. MELCHER. When this intention was not carried out, I asked this morning of the Secretary and Assistant Secretary-I want your reply, too—when that intention was not carried out, and it was delayed and you asked for a restraining court order, was there discussion or thought or the interjection of the political sensitivity of the question? Did that come up, to your knowledge?

Mr. BRUCE. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. MELCHER. It wasn't a factor in your thinking that evening? Mr. BRUCE. My major concern, as I said before, was the lives of these people.

Mr. MELCHER. Yes, I understand that. I am talking about whether or not as part of your concern-not necessarily your major concernwas not political.

Mr. BRUCE. It was not.

Mr. MELCHER. That was not a concern to you?

Mr. BRUCE. It was not a concern.

Mr. MELCHER. Do you feel that the aftermath of it has in any way evolved into a political consideration or considerations; that is, since that time?

Mr. BRUCE. Would you repeat that again.

Mr. MELCHER. Do you believe that as an aftermath of the takeover and as it is settling down now, do you believe that political considerations or political concerns have come to the forefront?

Mr. BRUCE. I don't think so.

Mr. MELCHER. You don't think so?

Mr. BRUCE. That is right.

Mr. MELCHER. Is your leaving as I understand, you are going to be leaving your position. Was there any political consideration there? Mr. LOESCH. Let me interrupt on that, Mr. Commissioner.

Mr. MELCHER. I think we have been ignoring all day the interjection of political judgment into this affair, and I can't see any purpose of the hearing if we are going to ignore something that is there. I would be glad to have you respond to it.

Mr. LOESCH. I wish Mr. Morton were here to answer for himself, Mr. Melcher, but you are obviously referring to the fact that I, Com

missioner Bruce, and Deputy Commissioner Crow were relieved on Saturday of our duties concerning Indian affairs. I personally have no idea what my future is as Assistant Secretary or otherwise in the administration. I am quite certain that Commissioner Bruce is equally ignorant of his future in the administration, either as Commissioner or in some other position. But I can tell you that I don't look upon the action that the Secretary took, in which I, Commissioner Bruce, and Deputy Commissioner Crow concurred fully on Saturday, as having really anything to do with politics. It was an attempt on the part of the Secretary to get the Bureau of Indian Affairs itself, the headquarters contingent of that Bureau, back in business. That headquarters is split and polarized to a disgraceful degree. There has been a lot of speculation in the press that we didn't get our employees back to work because we wanted people to see the destruction. If that was a factor at all, it was a factor for a very few days, and by that time the occupation was over with.

There were other reasons, including thinking on how we might reorganize the headquarters of the Bureau, which entered into that decision. But it has been determined by the Secretary that a good part of the Bureau of Indian Affairs headquarters will move to a different location. That some of the Bureau of Indian Affairs headquarters will remain in the BIA, what we have referred to as the BIA Building, but that other elements of the Department of the Interior will also occupy that building. This precipitated quite an internal struggle in the Bureau. You are well aware that I am personally much disliked by the leadership of the Trail of Broken Treaties.

The Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner Crow have had some problems. I felt on Saturday and I feel now that the Secretary took the only course open to him, which was to put responsibility for getting that headquarters back in full operation and as a going business in other hands, simply because of these polarizations.

If that is what you are referring to as political, I don't think that really has any political, with a big "P," connotation at all.

Mr. MELCHER. We will ponder that, with a small p.

But I ask you, if it appears to both of you that the tribal leaders— the duly elected tribal leaders-are the first source of information and guidance for the Department of Interior and for the Bureau.

Mr. LOESCH. Yes, sir. So far as the Department is concerned, it is the policy of the Department of Interior, and has been ever since I came here, that its major advice and counsel as to reservation programs and reservation people should come from the duly elected tribal governments of the respective tribes. It is for that reason that Secretary Morton said this morning that the Department has encouraged strengthening the organization of the National Tribal Chairmen's Association.

Mr. MELCHER. I have one further question and that is all; that is, Mr. Loesch, that prior to the time the actual takeover of the building on November 2, had you or anybody in your office or under your direction had any discussion with Chief Jerry Wilson on how to handle the group when they got here?

Mr. LOESCH. No, I don't think so, Mr. Melcher. I have had discussion both directly and indirectly, through my deputy and through one of our deputies for administration, with the GSA people about

available force and so forth. Let me reiterate that we believe it incumbent upon ourselves-in spite of the fact that we knew that the AIM people believed this to be both insensitive and not very cooperative-we believed it incumbent upon us to take their representations of a peaceful meeting-type situation at face value.

It was for that reason that I arranged the availability of various government officials across the executive branch for specific consultations with them.

Now we did not set up-I agree with the Secretary, if I had it to do over again, I might take a lot more security measures beforehand to see that such a large number of people did not get into the building in the first place. But at that time we considered they were going to be peaceful, they were staying down at the church in the District, they said they even told us that: "Since we are urban Indians, the BIA is not going to be a focal point of our concern in Washington. We are not mainly concerned with the BIA. In consequence, you are just being defensive by being nervous about the BIA."

These advance men told me this in the preliminary meetings.

I am frank to tell you that before we got through I believed them. So I did not take or recommend to the Bureau that we take any extraordinary precautions about allowing particular numbers at one time in the BIA building when they did show up.

Mr. MELCHER. Did you or anybody under your direction have any discussion with Chief Jerry Wilson on lodging or food availability? Mr. LOESCH. Not until after they got here.

Mr. MELCHER. Not until after they got here?

Mr. LOESCH. No, because we had been advised in terms, specifically, on three separate occasions prior to November 2, to be exact on October 20, October 30 and October 31, that the Trail of Broken Treaties did not desire any logistical support at all, neither lodging nor food, nor anything else. It was not until the morning of November 2 when I was first in the BIA building after the occupation began that any demands for room, board, and transportation were made.

Mr. MELCHER. Thank you.

Mr. ASPINALL, Mr. Loesch, I have just one more question. You have gotten into the big "P" and little "p" of politics. Have you heard any rumor that this might have been inspired by the Democratic candidate for the Presidency of the United States in order to embarrass the administration?

Mr. LOESCH. Mr. Chairman, you can hear anything.

Mr. ASPINALL. I did not ask you that. I asked you if you had heard anything.

Mr. LOESCH. Yes, sir: I did hear that.

Mr. ASPINALL. That is all I wanted to know.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ABOUREZK. Mr. Chairman; you did not believe that rumor, did you, Mr. Loesch?

Mr. LOESCH. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. ABOUREZK. I have one question, if I might, Mr. Chairman. You told Congressman Melcher that you and the Metropolitan Police Department or some official in that Department discussed with the Indian people the food and lodging. Did I misstate that?

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Mr. LOESCH. I think so. I did not mean to say, because I am not aware of it, that anybody in the Metropolitan Police Department discussed food and lodging with the Trail of Broken Treaties people. The morning of November 2, was the first time I received-when I was in the BIA building-a demand for lodging.

Also, while we did not receive a demand for food, we did receive a request to allow them to use or be fed that noon at the BIA cafeteria, in the basement of the building.

Mr. ABOUREZK. You probably misunderstood his question because you responded yes in answer to that. I just needed to clear it up. Mr. LOESCH. I am sorry.

Mr. ABOUREZK. I have no more questions, Mr. Chairman, thank you. Mr. ASPINALL. That is all.

Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much for being here today. I do not believe we will have further questions of these witnesses. The Chair will now call to the witness stand Mr. Robert Robertson, executive director of the National Council on Indian Opportunity.

Gentlemen of the committee, we do not have too much time here. I hope the questions that you will ask can easily be answered without a great deal of words.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT ROBERTSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL COUNCIL ON INDIAN OPPORTUNITY

Mr. ASPINALL. Mr. Robertson, do you have a prepared statement? Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes, sir, I do.

Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I am before you today at your request in regard to the seizure of the Bureau of Indian Affairs Building by a group calling themselves the Trail of Broken Treaties. I would appreciate being able to make a brief statement, following which I would be pleased to answer any questions from the committee members.

Since the committee has been provided with a chronolgy of events concerning the building takeover and related incidents, I will not repeat, in this brief statement, any such chronology.

At the outset, I would like to point out that my role in this matter was supportive of both the Indians and the administration, giving assistance and advice when so requested. The National Council on Indian Opportunity role was clearly defined: coordinating intergovernmental consultative efforts-opening doors for the discussion of substantive issues.

However, when it became clear that the protestors had no intention of following their written agenda and when the American Indian movement leadership seized the Bureau of Indian Affairs Building, NCIO's role then became one of assisting the total administration effort in the crisis it faced.

From the very start of our active contact with the group's advance men on October 18, 1972, NCIO and all administration elements cooperated maximally with the caravan advance people, striving at all times to keep the anticipated visit a peaceful one.

Because we had encountered trouble with the leaders of the caravans in the past, this stimulated us to expend extra energy in doing everything possible to insure a peaceful visit.