Senator KEFAUVER. Maybe you will get it yet. Mr. IRWIN. Perhaps, sir. Thank you. I have also included at the demand of this committee all the wires, letters, and other communications which I have received as a result of my participation in the electoral college. They are highly complimentary, sir. I would be glad to read them, in part or in full. I would remark that only two of the volume which I have received took issue with my position. I would like those included in the record, if there is no objection. Senator KEFAUVER. Very well, let them be made a part of the record. (The documents referred to follow the testimony of Mr. Irwin.) Mr. IRWIN. I also have the certificates of certification from the Governor of Oklahoma certified, attested to by the Secretary of State in six copies, if they are of value to the committee. Senator KEFAUVER. Yes; we would like to have them and one will be included in the record. (The document referred to follows:) STATE OF OKLAHOMA EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT CERTIFICATE Whereas there has been certified to me by the State Election Board of the State of Oklahoma the result of the final ascertainment, under and in pursuance of the laws of the State of Oklahoma, of the General Election held in said State, on the 8th day of November, 1960, to elect Presidential and Vice-Presidential Electors as provided by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America; and Whereas from an examination of said certificate I find that the law covering such election has, in all things, been observed, and that such election was duly and regularly held; and Whereas it appears that in said election the following named persons, who constitute all the candidates for Presidential and Vice Presidential Electors, for whose election any and all votes have been given or cast, each received the number of votes set opposite their names for Presidential and Vice-Presidential Electors, viz: Now, therefore, I, J. Howard Edmondson, the Governor of the State of Oklahoma, by virtue of the authority vested in me by law, do hereby declare, proclaim, and certify that: John R. Porter, Thomas C. Points, Theo L. Klockman, Glenn T. Nichols, Henry D. Irwin, D. Jo Ferguson, Genevieve Seger, Jesse Berry, Republicans, each having received the greatest number of votes for the offices of Presidential and Vice-Presidential Electors of the State of Oklahoma, are each and all of them duly elected to such offices, and by virtue thereof, are entitled to all the rights, privileges, immunities, and emoluments pertaining to said offices. In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused these presents to be attested by the Great Seal of the State of Oklahoma, this the 2nd day of December, in the year of our Lord, Nineteen Hundred and Sixty, and of the Independence of the United States of America the One Hundred and EightyFifth. [SEAL] Attest: J. HOWARD EDMONDSON, WILLIAM N. CHRISTIAN, Secretary of State of the State of Oklahoma. Mr. IRWIN. I have a warrant from the secretary of the election board stating that I was a presidential elector, office No. 5. I have a folder of miscellaneous papers which I have received. To my knowledge they are not pertinent. I surrender them on demand. Senator KEFAUVER. Well, we will let them be placed in our files as a part of our records but not copied in the printed record, unless counsel decides that some of them are pertinent. (A reproduction of Mr. Irwin's official "Certificate of Election" follows:) CERTIFICATE OF ELECTION Whereas, At a General Election held throughout the State of Oklahoma on the day of November A. D. 1960, 8th having received the highest number of votes cast for the office of PRESIDENTIAL ELECTOR, OFFICE NUMBER FIVE, as appears from the Certificate of the State Election Board to the Secretary of State; Therefore, This is to Certify. That the State Election Board of the State of Oklahoma, does hereby declare the said to be the duly and legally elected HENRY D. IRWIN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTOR, OFFICE NUMBER FIVE, AD. 1960. of the State of Oklahoma for a term of years, beginning with the 19th day of December Lo Winter Secretary, Oklahoma State Election Board Senator KEFAUVER. Is that all? Mr. IRWIN. That is all I have, all the material I have, sir. Senator KEFAUVER. Well, sir, during the time that you were working with the Republican electors, was Mr. Harris carrying on a similar effort among the Democratic electors? Mr. IRWIN. Any conclusions I drew are-I might draw are-presumptive. I presume he was, sir. Senator KEFAUVER. Did you compare notes with Mr. Harris from time to time? Mr. IRWIN. From time to time, I think I probably communicated with him by phone. Senator KEFAUVER. Did you communicate with him several times. by phone? Mr. IRWIN. Yes, indeed, sir. I could very well check my telephone billings and determine exactly. I do not know at this moment. Senator KEATING. Did you charge those billings to the ByrdGoldwater organization? Mr. IRWIN. I did not think they would pay for it. There was no Byrd-Goldwater organization. I did is as a patriotic duty to my country. Senator KEFAUVER. As it has been developed, there is no communication, no word, from Senator Byrd or Senator Goldwater about the matter? Mr. IRWIN. Only that from the office of Senator Goldwater, which I have presented to the committee. Senator KEFAUVER. Do you know how successful Mr. Harris was in the effort that he was carrying on among the Democrats? Mr. IRWIN. He was not successful because had he been successful I feel quite certain the coalition would have carried. Senator KEFAUVER. Well, sir, is it your idea that a national election should consist only of electing electors without regard to candidates of the major political parties, that there should not be such candidates? Mr. IRWIN. That is the situation into which we have been forced because the State laws prohibit for practical purposes in the State of Oklahoma, we cannot file, a Conservative ticket. We can file as an independent and, as I pointed out previously, there is no way of telling whether that independent is Communist or Conservative. That is the situation into which we have been forced. Senator KEFAUVER. Well, as I understand your position, you are in favor of just electing electors and let them decide who they want, without regard to any national contest? Mr. IRWIN. I am in favor of retaining the provisions of the Constitution as they now exist, with all the protections they guarantee and all the freedoms they guarantee. Senator KEFAUVER. Neither Senator Byrd nor Senator Goldwater were candidates or wanted to be candidates for President and Vice President, so far as I know, and yet under your idea of how it should be done, it would be possible for the electors to ferret out anybody they thought best qualified. Mr. IRWIN. Yes, sir. I believe we are all candidates for the highest office in the land. Perhaps some of us might not feel capable of executing the office, while others, a majority, might feel we are. I would liken the electoral college system in relation to our Fed eral Government and our executives to a board of directors, just liken them to the president of a corporation. The stockholders do not elect the president of a corporation. There is not a business, which Dean Clarence Manion has pointed out in the letter which I was not permitted to read, plus the radio address, Dean Manion has pointed out Senator KEFAUVER. You were permitted to read it. Mr. IRWIN. Saving time. Very well, sir. Senator KEFAUVER. To save time we put it in the record. Mr. IRWIN. Very well, sir. That was the point he made. The electors hold the same position in relation to the President of the United States that the directors of a corporation hold in relation to the president of that corporation, and for the stockholders to presume to elect a president of a corporation is the first step toward bankruptcy of that corporation. The same holds for the President of the United States. Senator KEFAUVER. Then under your idea there should be no national campaigns Mr. IRWIN. Yes. Senator KEFAUVER (continuing). On behalf of any candidate, just let every State elector, well, let them decide? Mr. IRWIN. Not in the sense of the campaigns presently conducted. I believe in the fact that if the American Legion wishes to put Joe Doaks up for President, the American Legion is entitled to say, "We endorse Joe Doaks." If the DAR's or Communist Party or the Socialist Party or any other group can publicly announce, "We believe this person should be President of the United States," I believe the electors should then decide who they think would best serve the interests of the United States and the interests of the individuals and the interests of the corporations. Senator KEATING. I do not agree with you in giving the members of the Communist Party that much power. To give them that power might destroy our country. Members of the Communist Party are not a political party at all. I do not agree with you that they should be given any such power as that. Mr. IRWIN. I cannot take exception to your position, Senator Keating, and I was being generous in applying the rules of democracy that everyone should be included and everyone should be entitled to a vote. I have the same fears. Senator KEFAUVER. Any other questions, Senator Keating, before I turn the questioning over to counsel? Sentor KEATING. Are you a Republican? Mr. IRWIN. I am a registered Republican. I have told the organization in Oklahoma that I shall be a candidate for elector in the next election. Senator KEATING. Will you be a candidate for President? Mr. IRWIN. If the people of the United States so choose, I would be a candidate, and I believe you are very well a candidate, sir. Senator KEATING. Well, I am not a candidate, but I was interested in whether you had any aspirations of that kind. 70784-61-pt. 3——7 Mr. IRWIN. As for my own personal position, I offered to quote the United Press and Associated Press that I have no political ambitions whatsoever. Senator KEATING. You did not support Mr. Nixon? Mr. IRWIN. I did support Mr. Nixon. If that is a point to, if we shall reduce our argument to, did you or did you not, I don't know that I can say that I did or did not support Mr. Nixon. I did not vote for Mr. Nixon in the electoral college. Senator KEATING. Did you support Mr. Eisenhower? Mr. IRWIN. General Eisenhower is a fellow alumnus of mine, and while I was not entirely pleased with everything he did in the traditions of West Point, in my understanding of the traditions of West Point, I certainly did support Mr. Eisenhower. And I would support him on an independent ticket or a third party, or what have you, if he chose to run on such a third party, as he has indicated, if we are to believe what Sherman Adams said, that he would be very much interested in seeing it established. Senator KEATING. Don't you think that to give every elector the opportunity to vote for anyone he wanted to vote for might well lead to a large amount of splinterization in voting for our two political parties? Mr. IRWIN. Considering the patronage available to the two parties, I would say it would evolve into a coalition of Conservatives and Democrats-pardon me, Conservatives and Socialists or rightwing and leftwing, however you wish to differentiate. There would still be two major parties. Senator KEATING. What would you do with those who had some conservative and some liberal tendencies? Mr. IRWIN. I believe that is our problem now. We have in our society liberal and conservative, on the left and the right, and in the other society liberal and conservative on the left and right. We are, both parties are, pitching, in my opinion, to the minorities. We are not concerned with the majority or the backbone and the stability of our country, and it is actually those minorities that we are pitching to, and we are neither right nor left. Perhaps, in my opinion, we are more left than right, but that is my opinion. Senator KEATING. You would not favor, I take it, doing away with the electoral college and letting the people elect the candidates? Mr. IRWIN. My opening statement was that, my statement was, I believe, the electoral college should be maintained in its present constitutional form, with all the provisions of safeguards and guarantees. If the States wish to change that they are free within the Constitution and present laws to make such changes to proportionally represent the population, if that is the wish of the people. Senator KEATING. And your interpretation of the Constitution is that it is within the power of any elector who is elected to vote any way he wants to? Mr. IRWIN. I am not capable of making any decision myself. I have trusted the judgment of Dean Clarence Manion who, I believe, is in favor of such a decision; Mr. George Montgomery, Jr., from New York City; Mr. Charlie Waller from Wilkes-Barre, Pa., and others, as well as our local judges and court officials. Senator KEATING. Do I understand, based upon that, that it is your opinion that the Constitution permits an elector to vote any way he wants to? |