Senator KEATING. It says the electors shall be elected- Senator KEATING. Yes. Mr. MILLER. What page are you reading from? Senator KEATING. Page 2. [Reading:] such districts to be composed of compact and contiguous territory containing as nearly as practicable the number of persons which entitled the State to one Representative in the Congress. Mr. MILLER (reading): and such districts when formed shall not be altered until another census has been taken. Of course, that is the same this language here, "such districts to be composed of compact and contiguous territory, containing as nearly as practicable" and so forth, is the language we have had before, as you well know, in the Judiciary Committee of the House in connection with congressional districts also. Senator KEATING. Is that the same language in the Constitution providing congressional districts? Mr. MILLER. No; because that is the language-I don't know whether you were a cosponsor of it or not, but for several years now we have had pending before our House committee-I don't know about the Senate Senator KEATING. No. I was not. And I would not favor imposing upon the State by this resolution the requirement that it must change its congressional districts, to correspond to the electoral districts under the Mundt resolution. Mr. MILLER. I am not opposed to that. Mr. MILLER. I am not opposed to that. Senator KEATING. I assumed you are not opposed with regard to electoral districts. Mr. MILLER. This whole thing, of course, is designed to eliminate as much as possible the gerrymandering which goes on, and I certainly have never been in favor of that. Senator KEFAUVER. Congressman Miller, do you think the proportional plan would result in splinter parties? Mr. MILLER. Yes; I do. Senator KEFAUVER. And cause chaos and so forth? Mr. MILLER. Yes; I do. Senator KEFAUVER. Have you read the resolution that has been presented by Senator Case of South Dakota? He adopts a proportional plan but says that no candidate's votes shall be counted in a particular State unless he gets as much as one-third of the vote. Mr. MILLER. Yes; I have that here, but I don't feel that I could support this. I think that proportional representation could leadproportional voting could lead to splinter parties and possible minority parties. This is what happened in Germany. As you well know, prior to 1933, after they had constitutional government given to them under the Constitution in 1924, in practically 9 years the Nazi Party took over in Germany although they never received-no Nazi candidate ever received more than 29 or 30 percent of the total vote cast in any general election in Germany for the Reichstag. But the point was that they had so many political parties in Germany for the Protestants and Catholics and labor and manufacturers and people who lived in the city and in the country and business and farmers and so forth, that about all you had to have was 29 percent of the vote in many general elections and you elected a member of the Nazi Party to the Reichstag, and when they gained a majority in the Reichstag they abolished the Constitution and set up a government by decree. And I think this is the danger inherent in this proportional election theory. Of course, the Case proposal of one-third does help a little bit, but I would be afraid of that. Senator KEFAUVER. Well, we certainly appreciate your coming and being with us today, Congressman. Mr. MILLER. Thank you very much, Senator, for your courtesy. Senator KEFAUVER. Our next witness is Mr. Irwin, but we will have about a 2-minute recess because Senator Keating wants to come back. (Brief recess.) Senator KEFAUVER. Mr. Irwin. TESTIMONY OF HENRY D. IRWIN, BARTLESVILLE, OKLA.; ACCOMPANIED BY GEN. BONNER FELLERS, COUNSEL Mr. IRWIN. I would like to introduce as my counsel Gen. Bonner Fellers, Mr. Chairman. Senator KEFAUVER. General Fellers, we are glad to have you here. Mr. FELLERS. Thank you, sir. Senator KEFAUVER. Mr. Henry D. Irwin of Bartlesville, Okla., was a presidental elector for the State of Oklahoma in 1960. Mr. Irwin, do you wish to first give us a brief résumé of your background, your education, and business? Mr. IRWIN. I would say that I am a graduate of the U.S. Military Academy, West Point, N.Y., class of 1941. Senator KEFAUVER. And what is your business? Mr. IRWIN. I have notes that will reflect that at a later date. If you wish me to explain that at this moment, I shall. Senator KEFAUVER. Just as you wish. Mr. IRWIN. I would prefer to refer to my notes in order to make it a more orderly presentation. Senator KEFAUVER. Why don't you just proceed in order, Mr. Irwin. Mr. IRWIN. Very well. Senator KEFAUVER. One thing I want to ask you. No one questions but that you are going to tell the truth. I don't know Mr. IRWIN. If you have any such fears as these, the truth as I know it and as I can document it, I certainly shall present it, sir. Senator KEFAUVER. I mean since you will perhaps be using other people's names, would you prefer to be under oath or do you just want to testify? Mr. IRWIN. As you wish. I am ready to proceed, sir. Senator KEFAUVER. If you have no objection to being sworn-I mean if you are going to say things about other people, it is better that Mr. IRWIN. Anything I have to say about other people I have documentary evidence as to their words, as I shall present them. It will not be a matter of interpretation or anything of that nature. I have no fears of misquoting other people. Senator KEFAUVER. Well, I think it would be better if we place you under oath, sir. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this committee will be the whole truth, so help you God? Mr. IRWIN. I do. Senator KEFAUVER. Now you just proceed as you wish, Mr. IRWIN. I have in hand from the Congress of the United States a subpena commanding me to make this appearance on this date, and to bring with me all records, books, documents, correspondence or other papers pertaining to the performance of my duties as an elector for the President of the United States, including any other things pertaining to the near success of a coalition plan and points of breakdown mentioned in your telegram of May 24, 1961, to Senator Estes Kefauver. I have brought all the documents that I have available to my knowledge. Senator KEFAUVER. Maybe we had better make the telegram that you sent part of the record. Mr. IRWIN. I will have that. Senator KEFAUVER. You say you do not have it? Mr. IRWIN. I have the telegram which I sent. Senator KEFAUVER. Well, suppose you read the telegram. Or were you going to get to that later? Mr. IRWIN. Yes, I will get to that later. Senator KEFAUVER. Well, go ahead. Mr. IRWIN. I have brought such records because of the charge here: "Fail not, else you will answer your default under the pains and penalties in such cases herein provided." I should like to say that some of the communications which I have received were received in confidence. If ordered, I will provide you with the names and source as well as the contents of those communications. I have the Senator's letter replying to my wire of May 24, dated June 9, apologizing for the delay. I have a letter from the chief counsel to the same effect. I have my telegram in reply to their letters. I do not have any telegram in reply to their letters. I have the wire from the subcomittee counsel suggesting that I appear, to which I did not reply. Senator KEFAUVER. We will make all these letters and telegrams that you have referred to a part of the record. (The documents mentioned and the subpena follow :) The Honorable ESTES KEFAUVER, t BARTLESVILLE, OKLA., May 24, 1961. Chairman, Senate Constitutional Amendments Subcommittee, Reference electoral college, I am elector who voted Byrd-Goldwater in last meeting of college. If testimony is being taken from "republic system of government" supporters I am available on invitation. I believe you would be interested in near success, of coalition plan, points of breakdown, and peril to the republic should Communist-Socialist infiltrate the college, or mass of havenots elect our president. HENRY D. IRWIN. Mr. HENRY D. IRWIN, U.S. SENATE, June 9, 1961. DEAR MR. IRWIN: Please accept my apologies for the delay in answering your telegram of May 24, 1961, addressed to me as Chairman of the Subcommittee on Constitutional Amendments. At the hearings of the subcommittee on the subject of electoral college changes, we are anxious to obtain all shades of point of view. Because of your personal experience as a member of the electoral college, I believe your testimony would be pertinent to the subject under inquiry. The hearings which have already been held have been limited to the appearances of Senators in support of proposed constitutional amendments sponsored by them. On June 27, 28 and 29, 1961, the hearings will resume for the purpose of appearances of other witnesses. You are invited to appear in person on any of these three dates. I have asked Mr. James C. Kirby, Jr., chief counsel to the subcommittee, to write you for the purpose of scheduling your appearance and arranging other details. Sincerely yours, ESTES KEFAUVER, Chairman. U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, Mr. HENRY D. IRWIN, SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS, June 9, 1961. DEAR MR. IRWIN: Senator Kefauver, chairman of the subcommittee, has advised me that you have been invited to appear as a witness when the hearings by the Subcommittee on the Electoral College resume on June 27, 1961. Budgetary considerations do not permit the subcommittee to pay any expenses of witnesses and I assume from your telegram of May 24, that you are prepared to come at your own expense. We will hear from 10 to 20 out-of-town witnesses on these dates and none of their expenses are being paid by the Senate. The morning of June 27 would be the best time for your testimony. By June 22 you should furnish a written statement of the testimony which you plan to give. The subcommittee will then be prepared to discuss your statement with you after you have delivered it. It would be appreciated if you would also send me a brief biographical or background sketch of yourself for purposes of preparation of our witness list. I am looking forward to meeting you on the 27th. Reference your June 9 letter, regret am unable to appear due to unforeseen circumstances. HENRY D. IRWIN, HENRY D. IBWIN. WASHINGTON, D.C., June 22, 1961. Bartlesville, Okla.: Subcommittee wants to hear your testimony and regrets you cannot appear on dates suggested. Please advise of dates prior to July 15 when you can appear. JAMES C. KIRBY, Jr., Chief Counsel, Senate Subcommittee on Constitutional Amendments. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES TO MR. HENRY D. IRWIN, Texas Hotel, Spring Lake, New Jersey, or 1107 South Cherokee, Bartlesville, Oklahoma, or wherever he may be found, Greeting: Pursuant to lawful authority, you are hereby commanded to appear before the Subcommittee on Constitutional Amendments of the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate of the United States, on July 13, 1961, at 9:30 o'clock a.m., at their committee room, 457 Old Senate Office Building, then and there to testify what you may know relative to the subject matters under consideration by said committee. And to bring with you all records, books, documents, correspondence, or other papers pertaining to the performance of your duties as an elector of the President of the United States in 1960, including any such items pertaining to the "near success of coalition plan and points of breakdown" mentioned in your telegram of May 24, 1961, to Senator Estes Kefauver. Hereof fail not, as you will answer your default under the pains and penalties in such cases made and provided. To the United States Marshal, Newark, N.J., or any other authorized person to serve and return. Given under my hand, by order of the committee, this 28th day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and sixty-one. ESTES KEFAUVER, Chairman, Subcommittee on Constitutional Amendments, Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate. Mr. IRWIN. I have a newspaper clipping from the Tulsa TribuneI conclude it was released by the counsel-advising the world that I had been subpenaed. That was on June 29. On July 6 I called the FBI in Spring Lake, N.J., told them my name, that I thought I was wanted, and within a half hour I was subpenaed, and I hereby am complying with that subpena. In opening, let me say that I believe we should keep the electoral college with its constitutional provisions as it is, and that Congress should enact the necessary laws to remedy the evils of our present elective processes. I have a terrific fear that if we alter our electoral college system we shall have surrendered our Republic to the brass knuckle type of gangsterism, labor organization, Socialists, organizations with which we are all so familiar from prohibition days in the 1930's. I so hope in my testimony to prove to you and to convince you that the electoral college system in its present form is essential to the survival of this country as a republic, to the hopes of returning to a republican form of government and to the reversal of the present race toward socialist-bureaucratic control of our country. I shall hope to prove to you and convince you that until Congress can enact laws and enforce them which would, first, insure redistricting of the separate States in accordance with the U.S. Constitution and the various State constitutions, and, secondly, establish a system of voting which will insure an honest, intelligent, informed individual exercising his considered judgment with equal force of any other individual, we are legalizing a system of socialism, communism, or anarchy in altering our electoral system. I shall hope to prove to you and convince you that whereas we represent our politics as being a two-party system where an individual may choose to support an identifiable philosophy embodied in the platforms of those parties, we have in fact two societies vying with each other in their efforts to mean everything to everyone, and both with 70784 061-pt. 3——3 |